I'll try to do that as space permits. But I often compress/abridge when quoting, to save space. I also try to 'de-personalize' a debate so people don't get all riled up by having their screen name invoked all over the place.

 

I'm so tired of this continuing myth of huge GM depreciation. Take a look at the five-year depreciation on the 2006 Grand Prix GXP ($10,400) vs that of the 2006 Acura TL ($13,000 !!!):

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2006/pon...43802/cto.html

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2006/acu...55175/cto.html

I'm still not seeing. Pls post a link, to the five-year TCO data for the 2007 Accord. I looked on edmunds for 2007 MY data on both cars, and finding none for the 2007's, then found and posted the 2006 data. Frankly it's a little absurd to think the TCO for five years of ownership will be much different if comparing 2007's together, vs. 2006's together, but I will humor you

 

You are, once again, using used cars to compare.

Furthermore the TL in the TCOs you linked to is presumed to have been purchased for 30,500 whereas the GXP was presued to have been purchased for 21,700. That's a massive gap in purchase price. Cars that cost more will by default depreciate more in terms of dollars and cents. Compare the percentage of depreciation and the GXP actually depreciated more as a function of its original purchase price.


$9830 first year depreciation for the GXP vs $4278 first year depreciation for the Accord.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/hond...82931/cto.html

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/pont...61595/cto.html

edit: just for the sake of comparison, the Acura TL, too (though it's a considerably more expensive car, new or used...):
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/acur...10912/cto.html


edit again... thanks for "humoring me"... ""

 

Well here you go then. Below are the TCO links for the 2007 Acura TL-S and the 2007 Grand Prix GXP.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/acur...10926/cto.html

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/pont...61595/cto.html

They show that while the first-year depreciation for the GXP is a little higher, the overall depreciation in five years is worse for the Acura. I compare these two, since the TL-S is the only car being mentioned here that at least comes *close* to offering the raw performance of the GXP's incredible LS4 V8. It's amazing isn't it? The Acura costs more, depreciates more, and STILL can't really stand up to the GXP's power or performance And the Accord, well...

Just goes to show, the sheeple are still hypnotized by the fading reputation of Japan Inc.

 

Just observing, it looks like those TCO numbers are based on MSRP minus rebates, which means they are not based on actual purchase price (negotiated price), and they are subject to change based on the available rebates at the time. I assume that Edmunds.com looks at the current incentives from all the makers and adjusts that aspect accordingly, at least.

 

Uhh...are you being serious?

You've back-pedaled from a 27k dollar Accord V6 to a 40k dollar Acura TL-S with navigation (the most expensive TL made) in order to make your case for the "superior TCO" of the GXP, a car which costs 29k?

The only reason you decided to back-pedal to the TL-S is that it suited your case for TCO. And again I say what else do you expect in terms of depreciation when comparing two cars with more than 10k dollars between their purchase price? Should we be surprised that a car that sells for 40k originally depreciates faster than a car that sells for 29k originally?

Your case that the GXP should be compared to the TL-S, rather than the Accord V6, based on acceleration statistics is just stupid unless that's, personally, your only basis for comparison of cars (flat-out performance), in which case you need to be shopping for cheap race-built fox body mustangs and not new entry level luxury cars.

The car from GM that is far more comparable to the TL than the GXP is the CTS, and guess where its TCO stands (despite the CTS still being less expensive from the get-go)?
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/cadi...17104/cto.html


It's actually based on their "TMV" (true market value) which is the price that edmunds.com users report to the website that they paid for their vehicle. It's then adjusted based on a function of typically equipped options plus destination fees minus current rebates, plus sales tax and fees.

So it's a fairly accurate purchase price based on actual prices paid with typically equipped options and sales tax in your zip code (which will make the numbers we're all seeing a little bit different in we've given our zip codes).

You'll notice on the breakdown of the True Market Value Price (which you have to click on that option next to the price to view) it gives a regional base price of 34,241 for the CTS. This is before the 3000 dollar rebate and taxes and options which are all added to get the TMV that is used in the TCO calculations. The actual sticker price of the car is 36,385 and the actual invoice price is 34,020. So basically Edmunds is saying the average person paid 220 dollars over invoice price before rebates when buying a 2007 CTS, and that is figured into the TCO.

 

I've seen a few of them driving around here ( I only live about 20 mins from the honda plant) I still kind of think they look like hyundais... It also looks like the grill on the 2 door is a liitle bit different than the 4 door, It looks better.

I'll probably be able to test drive one pretty soon. My father in law is a plant manager, so he drives that stuff home a lot.

 

The Grand Prix GXP is a perfect example of how Pontiac in particular can benchmark and beat performance FWD competitors with very little money.

From what I've read of RLSEngineering's posts on clubgp, the Pontiac team intensely focused on making the GXP run with the Altima SE-R. Though they were working with an older platform and not all that much money, they did very well. The car received good reviews even from the likes of Car and Driver. A year back I test drove a GXP back to back against an equivalently equipped and priced Maxima, and it was no competition - the Pontiac had it beat.

Of course, the GP GXP goes away after this year, without ever having received the corporate backing it deserved (otherwise, we'd have seen it five years ago). The G6 GXP is nothing more than a ghastly appearance package. GM again lacks a direct competitor for the performance midsize fwd sedan.

Yes, it is a driver's car.

I'm aware the Aura and Malibu are direct competitors - they are very good direct competitors. They could both have sport models, but only if you throw out the notion that the brands should each have their niche.

I just went into the off-ramp at full blast then abruptly let up on the accelerater in the middle of the turn. It's not that difficult - I can even get my Grand Prix to do it now that it has GMPP swaybars and trailing arms.

I figured I'd get a reaction here, but it's hardly heresy to point out the good qualities in the competition, and pretend that the second best selling car in America is a piece of slow junk. I encourage everyone to go and test drive the Accord themselves. If you come to a different conclusion than I did, I'll be happy to discuss why you're wrong.

 

LMAO at the TL vs. the Grand Prix comparison. These cars are not similar, other than that they have four doors, four wheels, and a trunk. For starters, I can't sit comfortably in the back of a Grand Prix.

The LS3 is a hoot, though, I'll give you that. I was digging the V8 rumble (rental).

 

I was being generous, when comparing the Accord and the GXP. It's really not appropriate when you consider performance and features. The TL-S and GXP are roughly on a par in performance (both about 5.7 to 60 MPH, and similar handling). Yes, performance does matter to me (apparently not to you ). If a buyer doesn't care much about that, they likely will cross-shop the Malibu or Aura with an Accord. My main point in comparing the GXP and TL-S was that the performance can be had for less with the GXP, when total costs are considered.
THANK you. It's good to see someone here who appreciates good engineering, and is unafraid to point it out in a domestic. I'll be the first to admit Honda-Acura has some finely engineered cars out there too (witness the hollow cams in the TL-S) - I just try to keep the field level when certain folks start chanting about their favorite imports.

 

Hey, if they don't want to be quoted, they shouldn't have posted. I know I'm not the only one that wants to see who you're quoting. Especially if you're editing what they said, I'd like to be able to jump back quickly and read their entire quote in context.

 

I seldom go back and try to see the original quote of someone, by their screen name. I use the search function in my browser (Alt-E-F in internet explorer) to find key words of a quote. Sorry but I'm not always going to use the little quote button. Usually the entire quote from someone is way too verbose and I take issue with statements, not people. YMMV

 

Performance matters to me, sure, but it's far from the only determining factor. To pretend as though the TL-S and GXP are comparable cars in anything other than performance is just ignorant. If you want to compare a GM vehicle's TCO to the TL-S, you need to be looking at the CTS.

 

Hey look, a partial quote.

 

Yes, I am aware of how to do that. But when someone makes a long post with several points, it's clearer to respond to each one of them in part, instead of just quoting their whole novel chapter and forcing readers to sift back thru to figure out what I am responding to. Again - it's the STATEMENTS I'm responding to, not the individuals.
I've seen little presented, to concretely justify why I must compare the TL-S to the CTS instead of the GP GXP. Performance (in a performance sedan!) doesn't seem to be a major factor to you... um ok. To me, and many others though, it is. What from Honda/Acura, am I supposed to compare a GP/GXP to, if not the TL-S? Their performance is VERY similar. They both have FWD performance suspensions, tires, and even paddle shifters. Their size and feature content are similar. Seems like a reasonable comparison to me. As for the CTS - - I imagine I'd cross-shop that with the Acura RL if I were in the market for a luxury sedan. The RL's AWD also goes up better against the RWD CTS. Face the facts - the TL-S is a medocre value in performance sedans, and the GXP is a superior value.