So what should it cost? $40K?

 

I think maybe a grand or two more then it was. Not quite 40k for a fully loaded SS. But it won't happen because chevy is wants the vette to be the undoubtable(sp?) best and now pontiac has the GTO, I think its going to be a while before they bring back the F-body .

BTW, I always wondered where the name Iroc came from?

 

Well, a grand or two from a fully loaded SS coupe is knocking on the door of $40K...a convertible would surely surpass that.

Anyhoo...are you saying that Camaro would benefit from a more expensive SS?

PS

International Race Of Champions.

 

more money=more options, maybe they could lower the price of the SS but increase the number of options I don't think anybody would be against that.

 

The fact is that SS is what GM says SS is. They could say that SS is now just a base model for all cars, then the SS would be the base for all cars, whether you like it or not. I don't see much point in arguing over something I have no influence over and may very well never exist.
If they decide the new top camaro to be have the name "Z28", the more power to them, It worked in the late second gen years, the third generation years, and the early fourth gen years...so it's not like it hasn't been done or is impossible for some reason. IF they want drop some "trim levels" or re-arrange them, or add new ones, that is 100% fine with me. I'm just saying that I would be willing to bet that IF we see a new camaro, the top model will be an SS, that is all, don't hate me for it. I'm calling it as I see it here, I don't have any inside info, and I may very well be wrong! I say I don't care one way or the other because I don't, it's just a name....it's impossible to please everyone, just look at the new GTO, or most any other car GM has "brought back".

 

In order:

1) Yes. The best strategy to sell 100,000 Camaros annually is to have three levels of car, and believe it or not (because I hate worthless complexity) three levels of engine at three horsepower levels. Base Camaro, Z28, SS. As much as the Z28 purists don't like it, SS has been and will always be interpreted as the top of the line. Camaros problem with sales was NOT that the SS ended up as the top option (I think the SS's sold pretty well, actually). The problem was that the design was 10 years old at the end there and NO ONE at GM would put ANY money into advertising the car.

2) I have a personal affinity with the SS name, and the general public knows what the SS denotes. Don't believe me? I see PLENTY of SS clones built off of Z28's and even V6's (even from the first generation). It's no accident either. SS has a 40 year history as the top performance models available off any platform (except Corvette) apart from the the true oddballs out there like the ZL1 (which had NOTHING denoting it was a beast apart from subtle cues - no badging) and the COPO cars.

Finally, originally I WAS looking for a Z28 and not an SS. I knew SLP's reputation as being "lots of money, not much return" in the performance department and truly wanted a Z28 stripper. I only considered the SS after realizing that the SS came with a couple of things the Z28 did not - 17" wheels and tires being pretty important to me, along with better resale.

After driving both extensively, I wouldn't go back and rethink my decision. Simply put, and while the extra money might not have initially been worth it, the SS was better than any of the Z28's I drove. We could argue about how effective the ram air is, but we cant's disagree that the wheels and tires were a BIG step up.

Here's the sad part for me:
GM has missed me in the market for another Camaro. By the time the next Camaro sees the light of day, I'll be ready for a Corvette.

 

I think it would be alot less expensive if they built them all the same way with no options, or very few options. Example Mustang Cobra has all the performance stuff standard, and practically no options, and it costs $35k. A friend bought a 2002 SS with all the options except for either of the suspension packages and it stickered for $37k +. He payed over $36k+tax+title. I don't think it will help keep the price down and make it affordable if you got a strippo and added all the good stuff. Most people want all "the bells and whistles".

 

Too bad they're not making a Corvette SS.

 

You bring up a good point actually.

The ONLY car that Chevrolet makes that does not fall under the SS halo is Corvette (apart from the turdish appliances like Cavalier and Malibu).

Apart from Zora Duntov's foray into "Super-Sports" car, it is the only car without any appreciable history with the designation. The cars that DO have the history (Impala, Nova, El Camino, Camaro, Chevelle... uh... the Monte Carlo and SS Truck ***GASP*** ...and my personal FAVORITE CAR TO HATE - the SSR...) universally get it applied.

It makes sense. Others here may disagree, but the general public is certainly in lockstep with that perception.

I may know that there are precious few differences between a 4th gen Z28 and an SS, but the general public doesn't have the same perception. I have had to explain to true enthusiasts what the real differences are on more than one occasion (even F-car OWNERS), but the important thing is that the general public perceives the difference as being large - and in that respect the SS designation on the 4th gen cars was a huge success.

Now, some may argue that the use of the SS on the current Monte Carlo and Impala has cheapened the designation. I beg to differ. If anything, the "Z28" designation has been dragged into meaninglessness by its use in the 80's behind woefully underpowered TBI 305's while it played second string to the IROC's, and during the 90's when the SS designation first reappeared on Camaros whose LT4's handily out-powered the Z28's LT1. In truth, the Impala SS contributed to this perception also. Then slap on some Z24 and Z26 nonsense on a Cavalier and a Beretta and you've put the nail in the coffin.

Finally, the modern SS Camaros are not as subject to one perception that the Z28's are...

That being that they are "Tony" or "mullet" cars. The general public views them as being the top of the line, while the Z28 still gets attributed in some cases to Hickville. I don't agree with it (remeber, I looked at Z28's first), but it IS there.

My thoughts? Keep it simple, stupid. Don't try to re-educate the buyer with Z28 when the top car on every other platform (apart from Corvette) and the latest top car on the Camaro platform is/was an SS for the last 6 years.

Lots of Corvette buyers know what they are looking for. Z06 buyers in particular don't generally just stumble into the machine on accident - they're gearheads. They aren't making the choice between a convertible and a Z06 - they came in looking for a Z06 because they want a killer performance machine and couldn't care less about T-tops when they get an extra 55hp in the deal. Camaros will have a smaller hard-core of buyers that think that way, but if the idea is to go mass-market (100,000 cars) then you need to stick with what works, and SS works.

 

Yeah, I know it may sometimes feel like a waste of energy. But GM is in business to sell cars to us......our opinions should matter.
The influence you have is with your checkbook.

 

Regarding TBI and Z/28. Until TPI came out...TBI was GM's premiere induction system...which Z/28 shared with Corvette. Also, I don't see how SS dispells the "mullet" cliche and Z/28 promotes it.

Yeah...but some of us don't need any re-education. Don't tell anyone, but the last time the Camaro Politbureau had their political revisionist purge....I was unaffected. My beliefs were too well founded.

Quote:

Lots of Corvette buyers know what they are looking for. Z06 buyers in particular don't generally just stumble into the machine on accident - they're gearheads. They aren't making the choice between a convertible and a Z06 - they came in looking for a Z06 because they want a killer performance machine and couldn't care less about T-tops when they get an extra 55hp in the deal.

I just can't believe that you don't see the Camaro parallel here.

Which re-education camp did you train at?

 

PX, you are a very confused person here. I don't even want to get into some of the nonsense I just read in your posts, matter of fact I'm gonna act like I never read it.

 

Ummm... Miss-Fire fuel injection on the 350 was the top induction system (205hp) until the TPI came out. I am unaware of any Camaros getting it and I believe that it was Corvette specific. Now, it WAS similar to the TBI's, but Camaros got 305 TBI's and didn't get 350 TPI's until later.

The fact remains that the 305 TBI's and carburated engines WERE SLUGS. 5.0 Rustangs SALIVATED every time they saw one. The only car they EVER feared was a TPI 350 IROC, and then it was so close that there was little to choose. I was in high school in that era... dark days indeed.



I never said it dispelled it, just that it was less susceptible to it. And it is.



And you're a rarity. Why you don't realize it is simple enough, but you have to stop thinking like you're the standard. The rest of the automotive buyers out there think differently. those of us who actually know the history between the two think MUCH differently. Z28 = stripper. SS = top performance model.



Camaro DOESN'T HAVE a parallel there. Z28's were never categorically the fastest Camaro available unless a big-gun SS or IROC WASN'T available. There were times it happened, but throughout the first generation, most of the 80's, and most of the 4th generation, they played second fiddle. I'd also argue that the top 375hp SS 396's would show a 302 Z28 taillights in a BIG hurry due to the very nature peaky nature of the 302 unless the Z28 was EXPERTLY driven.

The Z28 was a stripper performance car built for a very specific type of racing. The 375hp SS396's were the street warriors - humbled only by a very small, very select number of COPO cars.

Here are some stats taken at the time for the 1/4 mile in 1969:
(Z-28) 302/290bhp: 0-60 in 7.4 sec, 1/4 mile in 15.12 sec @ 94.8mph.
(SS396) 396/375bhp: 0-60 in 6.8 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.7 sec @ 98.7mph.

Note the trap speed. The Z28, even with less weight, is getting out-powered and out-accelerated.



Camaro SS University. Showing Z28's taillights since 1997.

 

I was refering to the Z/28's, '82-'83 (LU5) Cross Fire Injection. The induction was identical to the Corvette's 350 CFI. On Z/28, the LU5 was replaced by the 5.0 High Output L-69 motor, in '83/'84.

I think the engine you are refering to is the LO3. It was the "standard" engine on all IROC-Z, Trans Am and Formula from '88-'90. It never even appeared on Z/28....because at the time..there was none. When the Z/28 returned in '91...standard engine was the LB9 TPI.

Quote:

I never said it dispelled it, just that it was less susceptible to it. And it is.

Sorry...I just have no idea where you get that.

Quote:

And you're a rarity. Why you don't realize it is simple enough, but you have to stop thinking like you're the standard. The rest of the automotive buyers out there think differently.

I'm not as rare as you might think.......in fact, we are EVERYWHERE AND HAVE MONEY TO SPEND ON NEW CARS.



I think the Corvette Z06 and Camaro Z/28 parallel is so undeniably apparent...it needs no further comment.



We could compare 1/4 mile times all day long....I've seen and, in fact, pretty much have ALL OF THEM.

Suffice to say, as far as I know....that is probably the slowest 1/4 mile time ever published for a 1st gen Z/28...and one of the fastest ever published for an L-78 Camaro, (note: I described it by it's engine code, since most 1st gen Camaro SS's had the milktoast L-48 or L-35). But lets just assume those times are truly representative.....the first time you turn the steering wheel or use the brakes on those cars....you'll know which car is the performer.




Is that code for the People's Democratic Republic "re-education" camp ?

 

However the first gen Z/28's clearly had a superior suspension system to the SS's and could easily lose them in the twisties.

Don't get me wrong... I love the first gen SS's... but as long as we're stating facts here, I thought I'd add that point.

When I purchased my Z/28 (1995) the fourth gen SS had yet to be announced or released to the public. Therefore, Z/28's pre OBD-II were the top dawg Camaros.