But considering that approach ultimately didn't work out, as you keep pointing out, perhaps it isn't a great way to go. I'm not suggesting the Camaro have AWD with a turbo I5 from the Colorado or anything...IRS isn't exotic stuff.

It's also an interesting observation that probably only 10% of Mustang owners are hard-core racers, with that number maybe on the high side. You pointed out the Mustang clubs that said they'd prefer a solid axle...but I have to believe all of those people are included in that 10%. If Ford is right though, Mustang will sell no matter what, so cheaper and simpler is probably their best move. That doesn't mean I have to be impressed with their choices (which I'm not).

In a perfect world, the Camaro SS would be the drag race car with the solid axle (keeps the lineage) and the Z28 would be the road racer with the IRS (also keeps the lineage). Since there's no way we'll get that choice, it's time to go with the better piece for the most people. That said, I can't imagine Chevy would build a Camaro that simply stinks at the strip. I have faith the IRS will be a nice multi-purpose setup.

 

Gotcha

 

Now that's a good piece of information.

Any idea how much more space the struts give the engine bay?

 

Proud, good points, as always.

Let's run down some facts (and some well placed speculated facts ).

-1) Kappa will start under $20k.

-2) Kappa will have a sophisticated unequal length double wishbone (AKA SLA) suspension..front and rear, with coil overs and alloy control arms.

-3) People who consider a V6 Mustang, will probably have enough money to consider a Solstice (or other Kappa)

-4) IRS WILL be standard on Camaro. The last live rear axle Camaro to ever be built...was built 17 months ago.

-5) The rear suspension on the 3rd and 4th gen F-car, was probably one of the best engineered live rear axle suspensions on planet Earth....and yet it felt archaic.

-6) Ford's V8 powertrains are a much higher fixed cost item for Mustang, than the Gen IV V8 will be for Camaro.

What do all of these disparate facts have in common?


Ford had to cut cost out of the Mustang's suspension to pay for it's more expensive V8's.
Kappa wiil take it's share of the lower end market, including many V6 Mustang sales.
Once Solstice takes off, people will realize that a modern chassis doesn't need to cost alot.
Camaro won't sell as many units as Mustang......nor does it have to.
Camaro will probably be considered slightly higher end than Mustang.
In 2010...when the next Mustang will be 5 years old, people will compare it's dynamics to a John Deere.

And finally........a prediction....

Yes, a $34,000, 430 hp (actual, not rated), 5th gen Z/28, will lap Nurburgring faster than a $40,000, 500 hp, '06 Cobra.

I think Ford made the right decision on Mustang and it's chassis. Many of the reasons have been eloquently explained in this thread. But now GM may have been presented a golden opportunity.

 

Now that's what I'm talking about. The proof is already in the pudding as they say. If GM can cost-effectively put the "good" stuff onto a $20,000 platform for niche sports cars, I would have to believe they can do similar, if not better, things with a Camaro chassis.



Well now that would be something...especially since we've been hearing so much about how Cobra is aiming straight at Corvette. This should be fun!

 

Z284ever, Z28Wilson, you know what you guys' problem is...
Actually, you have multiple problems (both of you)...

1)You know FAR TOO MUCH about cars, old, new, and future ones.
2)You are enthusiasts, with realistic expectations.
3)You set attainable goals for automakers.
4)You are passionate about cars, clubs, and things related.
5)You are blessed with common sense and grey matter.
6)You want better things for people, than they want for themselves.

All admirable qualities in you gents!

Please understand I'm not AGAINST any IRS systems, and I acknowledge their benefits whole-heartedly, but everyone in the free world doesn't care for "caviar". That's my ONLY point here in this thread.

OK, so you want to explore a different solution for Ford to offer the IRS to performance nuts at a cost advantage...
COUGAR.
Put the Mustang running gear in it, on a modified DEW98, upgrade the interior (somehow?), and put SLA/IRS all around. It's a hybrid of Lincoln LS and Mustang - and all the parts are already PPAP-tested and mass-produced. We only need skin and interior. They could then advertise the Cougar as the Mustang - "upscaled in every way", INCLUDING the ride quality provided by SLA/IRS systems. It's a sure fit for the Marque, the Model, and the Market.

Best of all, it's a win-win test for Ford because...
If the systems all work out to be the performance-enhancing wizards that we arm-chair racers say they are, folks will be hoarding wrecked Cougars from junk yards for the parts ASAP, Ford's FRPP catalog will have the parts in it tomorrow, and we'll see "upgrade articles" in every Mustang rag on the stand, showing how to "swap-in the IRS system", or "swap over your front arms for SLA units".
If the system does NOT bring substantial performance advantages over the front L-arm/strut and Panhard/live axle system, it will still serve as a "better quality ride" basis for the upscaled Cougar - I think we ALL agree on that. We just won't see an exodus of swaps to the Mustang for drag or AutoX work, and the Mustang will live on as-is for the near future.

It fits Mustang perfectly IMO, because EVERYONE can still opt for the "cheap" Mustang because it's available, those who want to spend extra can get IRS on the upscaled Stangs from the factory, and the "tuners" who want to add IRS to their car later can do so via the Ford parts catalog and get customer service/support.

Whaddayasaytothat?

(PS - I may have to start another thread soon about the upcoming Cougar anyways... don't want to spill the beans before I know they are done cooking.)

 

 

I am past the whole economy of scale argument here Proud....I'm just talking cost of components.

ie,...Mustang GT motor----- 2 cams and 3v per cylinder cost more than 1 cam and 2v per cylinder. Also, 1 cam and 2v per cylinder cost waaaay less than 4 cams, 4v per cylinder, supercharger, intercooler and associated peripherals.....weighs more too.



Hey.......will you start that Cougar thread already......I want to know what you know.

 

Well, I'm only willing to bet a couple rounds of drinks over this right now....and you'll have to come to Chicago to claim them.

But here is how I see it......

The Cobra will be heavy. It just can't help but be. Big motor. Big supercharger. Big intercooler. Big wheels (20's I've heard).

And why did I pick Nurburgring? Because it's not just the Europeans testing their cars there...Americans..like GM for example have now set up shop there.

THE 14.189 MILE Nurburgring circuit; 174 turns and about 90 gear changes per lap. Only the highest performance street car can run one lap without frying it's brakes.

The Cobra will have hellacious power, but it's brakes will continually need to harness that power and hellacious weight. The CBS IRS will do it's part to get the Cobra around the circuit quickly....but the front McPherson struts will betray it. The front will constantly scrub off speed. Over every hill. Over every bump. Around every decreasing or increasing radius turn......it's 500 horse, supercharged, supercooled engine will try to gain back speed lost by it's front suspension....and weight.


This is fun, I'll finish later.........

 

Ahhh... OK you win on that point. 1 cam vs 4, extra journals, two timing chains... etc. On a cost/part basis I'm sure GM has an advantage because their are less parts in the pushrod engine (or are there?)... 16 lifters, 16 pushrods, and um... oh yeah - THAT'S why the LS1 doesn't have 32 valaves!!! Now I remember!

I can't say I know what a crated 4.6-3v costs Ford, but my hunch is you are right - it costs more than GM's LS1 in a crate. I'd LOVE to know the diff though - wouldn't you?

I can't crack that egg open just yet about the Cougar. But isn't it funny how the waves have all gone calm about that car since the summer? And the Messenger was such a hit at the NAIAS last year too. I wonder what's been going on at Ford during all this quiet time? Gimme a week or two. I actually CARE what people think about me on this stupid web - don't wanna blow it.

 

It's a deal - I'm in.

Don't forget - no Cobra data for almost 18 months!
It will be ALL NEW.
That DOESN'T mean a blown 5.4 like the '03.
That DOESN'T mean porky 3600lbs like the '03.
That DOESN'T mean it will have struts like the '03 (or '05 for that matter).

Ford is moving so fast right now, even it's loyal followers and insiders are having a hard time keeping up with it all my friend.
All you can expect... is changes!

PS - since you're buying, I'll let you pick the brand!

 

You do know that the '03 Cobra consistently outruns 350hp C5s on most roadcourses right?

 

I never heard that...post some links.

 

Back to Nurburgring.....

Last time we left off...... Cobra's 8.5 lbs of boost were huffing to build speed faster than the front strut suspension could scrub it off. But, Boost = Pressure=Heat. This is no 1/4 mile race. This is 14 miles of the most challenging road course on Earth...with 975 ft of elevation changes. Will Cobra overheat?

200x Z/28.
LS2 with "Z/28 SPECIAL PERFORMANCE" cam, exhaust and dry sump oiling system. M12 six speed. 18" front wheels, 19"rear wheels. Brembo brakes...14" front, 12" rear, with crossdrilled rotors. Certain structural components have been replaced with hydroformed aluminum. Z/28 weighs 250 lbs less than Cobra.


Powering down the straight, which is the highest part of the circuit, Cobra has the advantage. Both cars are nearing 120 mph in 6th gear as they reach the first corner, a tight right followed by a slightly longer left, the Castrol-S corner. Z/28 closes the gap!

Watching they don't slide to the left as they turn into the sharp right, getting this corner right sets up for a fast exit at 90 MPH as they enter a short straight. Cobra understeers slightly, Z/28 is right on it's bumper. Reaching 150 MPH in 6th gear, drivers break for a moderate left, taken at 90 MPH before switching across to the left of the circuit for the Ford Kurve, taken even slower at 50 MPH in second gear.

The Ford Kurve leads onto a straight which sees an elevation drop as they power down towards the slowest part of the circuit. Cobra's brakes are getting overheated as they try to rein in 3700+ lbs and 500 horsepower. Passing the first timing sector on the way, drivers reach the Dunlop-Kehre, a hairpin surrounded by a massive spectator stadium section. If Z/28 was fitted with the HUD mounted G-meter.....it would now show 1.05 g's....the dry sump system has just paid for itself! And Z/28 takes Cobra on the inside. Slowing to 40 MPH for the moderate hair pin, drivers play with the throttle as they attempt to find grip and set up for quick exit and run up to a sweeping left and right taken at almost full throttle, at 130 MPH..... Cobra is starting to reel in Z/28. This corner is tricky and can catch one out as he reaches the crest of the hill, being on the wrong line here can see him in the gravel.

Continuing the build up of speed along another straight, drivers power down towards the RTL Kerve, a tight left taken at 70 MPH followed by a right taken at 80 MPH. Cobra is starting to overtake Z/28. Again the cars have to switch from right to left between each corner, leaving no room for error. Taking the Blt-Kurve, in 3rd gear, drivers run down a big elevation drop towards the ITT-bogen corner, which is a fast sweeping right taken at 150 MPH. The elevation change has just cost Cobra's supercharged engine some horsepower.

Watching on the entry as the cars bottom out before continuing up a hill towards one of the most tricky parts of the circuit, the Veedol-S chicane, also passing the second timing sector. Drivers break heavy from 150 MPH to 40 MPH as they turn sharp left then right exiting the chicane and running over the exit kurbs.....this is where Z/28 devours Cobra! A short straight follows before the final corner, the Coca-Cola Kurve, taken at 55 MPH. This corner is vital to conclude a good lap and can set up for a fast run onto the start/finish straight, completing a lap of Nurburgring.


Z/28 takes the checkered flag!



*Many thanks to Formula One Journal*

 

Mate, you have way too much time on your hands.

Nice story nevertheless.