Get good winter tires. It will change your life.

 

I didn't find the KDWS to be that bad of a tire in the winter. I got through two winters with KDWSs on my 2000 Z28, and two winters with the stock RS-As. I had to be careful, but it was manageable. Then I tried one winter on RS-As on my CTS and it was horrible ... I attribute that to no LSD. Once I put winter tires on the CTS is was great in the snow, one of the best cars I even owned. I'm planning to use winter tires on my G8 GT now, even though it does have a LSD.

So my summary from personal experience
- FWD with open diff, all-seasons okay
- RWD with open diff, gotta have winter tires
- RWD with LSD, all-seasons okay but winter tires preferable

 

KDWS stands for Key Dry Wet & Snow. It's more like an all-season tire. A RWD car pretty much needs snow tires. If there is a slant on the road (most do for the water run off), and it's icy - try moving from a stop. Chances are, the rear end will start sliding toward the slanted edge. That's even with all-season-tires.

LSD helps, but not in all situations. In the situation above, it won't help - it will actually help the rear end to slide toward the slanted edge more.

In my opinion, snow tires are good for any car (FWD, AWD), as it aids turning and breaking. But it is absolutely a MUST for a RWD car.

 

Key?

I had heard before that it meant "killer", as in, "these tires are killer in dry, wet, and snow".

 

Seriously?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....rce+T%2FA+KDWS

 

Yup, Killer Dry, Wet, Snow. Happy with my leased daily driver GP and the Bullitt is going to sleep until spring.

 

It's 2004 all over again!

Who wants to buy a car that is already being discontinued in talks? Now the GTO and the G8 will be the black sheep of Pontiac!

They need to close the doors at Pontiac. The Grand Prix was a volume leader untill the let it go lame....

 

Anyone with the ***** to compare a 362 horsepower G8 performance sedan's fuel economy against a 200 horse V6 Grand Prix needs a CAT scan. Next? Compare the fuel economy of a Aveo to a Camaro SS?

As for the idea that "unlike a Grand Prix" you won't go through 6" of snow in a G8... Like hell you won't!

The reason you were stuck in 1" of snow was because:
1. You had on a set of wide performance tires (spreads the weight over a larger area), and ...
2. You didn't have on snow tires.

I'm guessing that your way out of being stuck was flooring the thing, and you got even more stuck. If you want, I can have my 69 year old mom call you and tell you how to not get stuck in 1" of snow in a RWD car.... even without snow tires. My 35 year old sister can as well.

Every time this subject comes up, fellow Pennsylvanian Fbodfather and friends I grew up with who actually grew up driving RWD in the hilly Pittsburgh area all seem amazed at how people are so seemingly clueless about RWD.

We all wonder what people think the public did during the winter before FWD evidently replaced the common sense that even non-automotively inclined grandmoms had regarding cars. As part of winterizing your car... check your antifreeze, inspect the battery, & switch out the rears to snow tires.

Before anyone starts whining about having to buy another set of tires, let me point out that snow tires tended to dry rot well before they wore out. They were only used only 2-4 months per year and after about 4 or 5 years (perhaps longer nowadays) when they started cracking around the sidewalls, you replace them.


If I can run a nose-heavy, RWD, 5.0 Mustang in 6" of Pennsylvania snow....
If I can run a Thunderbird SC in snow in Reno Nevada...
If I can run a RWD Z28 with traction control in snow....
If I can run a Camaro B4C without traction control...
If as a 18 year ould I can drive a RWD '75 Malibu in the hills of western Pennsylvania in the snow...
And finally...
If people can drive nose-heavy... RWD...pickup trucks around in the snow routinely....

then you can drive anything (including a GTO) in the snow.

You just have to be smart enough to know that summer performance tires are exactly that performance tires, and that all season tires are not snow tires. They are tires for people who don't know any better or can't afford the extra $1 per week average over the life of the tires.

Run 245 performance summer tires on a FWD GXP Grand Prix, and you'll get stuuck in snow too.

GTOJack, perhaps you need a course on RWD ownership.




Gotta disagree with you a bit on this Brandon. Grand Prix sales for calender year 2004 versus 2003 were up 5%. At 131,551 cars in 2004, Grand Prix was GM's 4th best selling car behind the Chevrolet Impala and Malibu and Pontiac's own garish Grand Am.

As far as the Nissan Maxima, it's a nice car but after driving one on the California Autobaun (Interstate 5 between the 580 exchange and the Grapevine) it was the most unstable car at speed I'd ever driven until I sat behind the wheel of a Pontiac Bonneville.

The G6 seems to be a much better car and is doing very well. Pontiac sold 150,000 G6s last year. While the Altima sold 284,762 last year, the Maxima's sales of only 52,574 is clearly trounced by the G6. Not saying the G6 is any overall sales champ. But compare it's sales number to the 128,300 Malibus and the 149,000 Ford Fusions sold last year, the G8 is more than holding it's own at the General.

 

Guionm,

A large part of the problem being GM turned it's back on the Grand Prix, a car that slowly lost it's triming and towards the end of it's life was pretty much a designated fleet vehicle. Also, Their are people who will only depend upon FWD or AWD for snow driving. Yes, tires make a huge difference, but for the large amount of drivers, they will never experience/ need the enhanced performance from RWD so they would much rather have FWD. A perfect example is maybe a BMW or MB, almost all in the North East are AWD, few want to bother with 2wd and snows regardless. Another consideration, the G8 V6's MPG is no where's near that of the Grand Prix or Impala! 25MPG highway for a 2wd V6 car in 2008 is pretty poor, most likely you'll be getting high teens in average commuting conditions.

This is the same example as when Saturn stopped producing the ION in favor of the Astra. As hum dry as the ION was, it sold to people who wanted transportation about 100K a year. The Astra is a flop.

It seems GM cant import a vehicle from oversea's and do it right

 

1. Grand Prix was being body slammed by the sales of the G6. Before that, the Grand Am was outselling Grand Prix. Also, 60% of all Grand Prixs were going to car rental companies.

2. Over half the cars in showrooms today are "being discontinued in talks". That's called a normal life cycle of a vehicle. Depending on which car model you talk about, there's replacement or discontinuation talks about all of them.

3. For different reasons, both the GTO and G8 sold in notably lower than projected numbers. The saving grace in both instances is that even at these low numbers both cars benefit Holden by filling plant capacity and because Holden makes small numbers of cars compared to the old W car lines in Oshawa, it still is profitable to make them.

 

Chris,

First of all, most BMWs and Mercedes Benzes are NOT AWD. Even in the Northeast.

Second, GM did NOT turn it's back on the Grand Prix. It was scheduled to be replaced in 2008 with a new Zeta model. New vehicle planning happens as much as 3-5 years ahead. GM (and most all other companies) aren't going to pump money into a car they are discontinuing. In fact, the '04 Grand Prix was a better car than the previous one was.

Third, it was Bob Lutz who took off the body cladding.... of the Grand Am, not the Grand Prix. He removed it off the Avalanche too. He felt it took away from the design plus it cost extra money.

Fourth, the G8 V6 is rated at 17 mpg city & 25 highway. The Grand Prix rates 18 & 28. Ditto the Impala. So your point that the G8 V6 V6 doesn't come close to the mileage of the Grand Prix and Impala isn't factual... it does. You also seemed to have convienently skipped over the fact that the G8 V6 packs over 260 horsepower to Grand Prix's mere 200. You also ignore that the V6 G8 smokes that V6 Grand Prix, coming bless than half a second off of the supercharged Grand Prix GTP!... not to mention nearly a full second quicker than the V6 Grand Prix.

I'd take a G8 V6 over a Grand Prix V6 any day of the week, and I'd bet serious money that I'd be in a pretty sizable majority... and not just enthusiasts either.

Fifth, the Saturn Ion, let me throw a number at you. 102,042. That's the number of Ions sold last year. Let me throw another number at you. 173,213. That's how many Ford Focuses were sold last year. There were roughly as many Dodge Chargers sold last year as Saturn Ions. Astra is failing for a number of reasons (production glitches, currency exchange rates that all but wipped out profitability which makes each Astra sold here a loss).

Cars are imported by the big 3 when they want to fill in a particular part of their lineup by don't think the sales are going to be high enough to warrant creating that model here in North America. In short, they aren't intended to be big sellers otherwise they'd make them here. This goes not just for GM, but also Ford and Chrysler as well.


Going to the RWD point, I agree there are people who are used to driving FWD. But to use that as a basis to insinuate that RWD is more dangerous than FWD shows ignorance of RWD.

I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make with your post regarding FWD-RWD. The subject is that a person stated that his GTO got stuck in just an inch of snow and it's obvious that he was running summer tires. Yet, you said: "the large amount of drivers, they will never experience/ need the enhanced performance from RWD so they would much rather have FWD". The subject is about the usability of a performance RWD vehicle in the snow. Obviously, the person wanted this RWD car and not a FWD performance coupe. RWD is just as capable in the snow as FWD.

Those that are more comfortable driving FWD will continue driving FWDs. Those that want a RWD vehicle need to know that alot of the "RWD is dangerous on anything but clear, dry roads" school of thought is incorrect.

In fact... I often fight the urge to say people who continue to spread that myth need to be shot, but I avoid it.

 

As could be expected...2004 was an all new car vs. 2003 which was 6 model years old. What was the Grand Prix sales in 1997, 98 & 99?

The Maxima sells well none the less. If you spend some time on ClubGP..you will see most of the Grand Prix owners talking about the Altima & Maxima a lot....they were VERY cross shopped.


The G6 does sell well and it is a better car. But it is a better car because GM put more thought into it. Even though design is boring..it is not outright offensive like the front end of the last GP.

But it is also on the small side, and sold to fleets alot. Either way it still sells less than the "gnarish" Grand Am did. Say what you want about the last gen Grand Am...but it won a lot of sales (especially in GT trim) because it looked like it could scare the tires off a Mustang..even though the performance was not there. The G6 is an unexpressive, soft, Oprahmobile. I mean..think of it this way. You own a 1997-2008 Grand Prix...and it is time for a new car. I can't see any way the G6 is on the list of replacements. MAYBE the G8 if you don't have a bias against RWD....but no way a G6.


Come on Guy...you know better than that. If you have a Grand Prix your tired of..and go into a Pontiac dealership looking for a replacement...what do they have for you? A G8. In terms of design, size, and intended use, the G8 fits right in the slot the GP had..except it is RWD.

You can get up on your high horse all day long about RWD and the winter...but the fact of the matter is people have preconcived notions and feel FWD is better in the snow. Just like some people think Toyota builds better cars than GM even though it is not true. If your in GM's shoes, you can either say the customer is wrong and build cars they don't want, or you build what the market demands. In GM's mind the Grand Prix did not sell well anymore, and was in the same showroom as the LaCrosse..so why not kill it and reduce overlap. In reality, the last Grand Prix failed because the 2004 redesign was ugly, and the car was quickly dated when compared to it's competition. The SC version of the 2004 Grand Prix was slower than the car it replaced and had a computer that was unfriendly to modding. The best metric I think is to look at what the cars sold for. If you look at the selling price of 1997-2003 cars vs. the 2004-2008 cars..you will see that GM actually sold the older cars for more money. I remember looking at an 03 SC Grand Prix..and it started at about $30K with a 2K rebate. By 2005-2006, the new GP's cost $1,000 more sticker, but had $3K & 4K rebates on the hood. Basically, GM lost it's way with the GP, and rather than correcting it, they gave up.

One other thing you need to get out of your head is that the G8 is some muscle car because it has a V8. I have spent a bit of time in the aftermarket...and I will tell you a G8 owner is very different than a GTO owner. A lot of GTO owners would buy their car and dump $3-4K in mods like it was nothing. catback, exhaust, headers...you name it. You will almost never find a GTO that is not modded. With the ****ty trunk, and rear seat access, the GTO is almost always a 3rd car..so if someone whines about their GTO not doing as good in the snow as their beater Grand Prix...it makes no sense.

On the flipside...the G8 is a family sedan that happens to be pretty fast. G8 owners are concerned about things like keeping their cars quiet and streetable for family trips...and in general just don't mod their cars as much. What I am saying is even though the G8 may be RWD, and have 360HP...people who buy it are using it no different than they would that 200HP GP....a daily driven family sedan. So if you go into a Pontiac dealer and want to trade your GP in....and all they have a G8...it is a VERY valid concern and possible negative that the G8 is RWD.

This is why I say that GM is giving up a bit of market to Nissan by not having an agressivly styled, performance oriented, large FWD sedan.

 

17 and 25mpg is still worse, and not many people want to trade in there current car for one that gets worse mpgs. It may have 60 more peak hp, but it takes forever to get from 50-70 to pass someone capared to my 04 GP GT. I'd take a base Grand Prix and the difference in MSRP over a G8 V6. For the difference in price and mpgs between the V6 G8 and V8 G8, the V6 seems pointless.

As for FWD vs. RWD, dispite what you may personaly feel or like, FWD is easier to drive in the snow and is prefered by a large number of people who live where that is a concern.

Also, everytime I talk to some one who is int he market for a G8 like car and I mention "G8" they get a lost look on their face and have no idea what type of car it is. If they would have just called it "Bonneville" it would sell better among the GM faithful who don't spend their lives on the internet.

 

Guy, you seem to have issues with FWD cars. I dont know if you got run over by one when you were growing up, and the transaxle you saw looking up from underneath one is still haunting you, but I would think its safe to say that a FWD car is better in the snow than a RWD car. I drove an MGB with studded snows when I was in college in the 70s, and have mostly owned RWD since then. I've driven Trans Ams thru the winter with 215 tires and weight in the rear well. I was ready for something different than the 14mpg city GTO I owned and found a new Grand Prix lease deal for $220/month, with first month payment down. I have a high performance (so to speak) Mustang GT Bullitt for pleasure driving and I am very happy with my GP, even though I knew it was being replaced when I leased it. Just chill out dude.

 

I 100% agree with this. G8 has no emotion compared to naming cars after racetracks.