Keep it cool, guys!

 

Who can't afford $2.28/gallon gas? That's what I'm seeing around here

 

More and more Americans live in places where it doesn't snow. Ignoring that market doesn't make any sense. I see a lot more Chargers than Grand Prixs or Impalas (ignoring fleet) around here. And more BMWs than either.

When I buy a car or tires, snow traction doesn't enter into the decision. But I won't buy a FWD, except on an econocar.

So I don't think the G8 was expected to appeal to Chicago or Michigan, but to Los Angeles and Miami -- two places where GM mid and large cars have been doing very poorly.

 

[QUOTE=guionM;5655280]Chris,

First of all, most BMWs and Mercedes Benzes are NOT AWD. Even in the Northeast.

[B]I'm not sure where you are from, but seriously, around here no one owns a non AWD Audi, BMW, MB or Infiniti. If your spending 40+K on a car, the extra 1K for AWD is a good move unless it's a high performance version (M, AMG,... exc). B]

Second, GM did NOT turn it's back on the Grand Prix. It was scheduled to be replaced in 2008 with a new Zeta model. New vehicle planning happens as much as 3-5 years ahead. GM (and most all other companies) aren't going to pump money into a car they are discontinuing. In fact, the '04 Grand Prix was a better car than the previous one was.

You cant tell me towards the end of it's life, aside from the GXP version, it was looking pretty bland. Most people never got over it's 2004 re-do. Had Pontiac never built the GTO, they probably would have been much better off had they built a really nice Grand Prix 2 door again. I still see alot of them on the road today.

Fourth, the G8 V6 is rated at 17 mpg city & 25 highway. The Grand Prix rates 18 & 28. Ditto the Impala. So your point that the G8 V6 V6 doesn't come close to the mileage of the Grand Prix and Impala isn't factual... it does. You also seemed to have convienently skipped over the fact that the G8 V6 packs over 260 horsepower to Grand Prix's mere 200. You also ignore that the V6 G8 smokes that V6 Grand Prix, coming bless than half a second off of the supercharged Grand Prix GTP!... not to mention nearly a full second quicker than the V6 Grand Prix.

The way I see it, the people who bought Grand Prix werent concerned about those type of situations, they enjoyed the pull of the supercharger and the (then) attractive distinctive looks of the Grand Prix. It's hard to switch those people over to a G8 even if it is a much more solid car. the extra cost, RWD, and lower fuel economy dont cut it to many.


Fifth, the Saturn Ion, let me throw a number at you. 102,042. That's the number of Ions sold last year. Let me throw another number at you. 173,213. That's how many Ford Focuses were sold last year. There were roughly as many Dodge Chargers sold last year as Saturn Ions. Astra is failing for a number of reasons (production glitches, currency exchange rates that all but wipped out profitability which makes each Astra sold here a loss).

Cars are imported by the big 3 when they want to fill in a particular part of their lineup by don't think the sales are going to be high enough to warrant creating that model here in North America. In short, they aren't intended to be big sellers otherwise they'd make them here. This goes not just for GM, but also Ford and Chrysler as well.

Why would a struggling company like saturn benefit from loosing their bred and butter car like the ION for a Astra? Those numbers you show reflect the last year of ION sales. The ION is no longer produced. The Astra is a nice car, definately MUCH better looking and more well rounded. However At Saturn, the only things that sell are Vue's and Ion's (when I worked their). The Outlook is a tough sell and the Sky is a Halo vehicle not intended for volume sales. The type of buyer who bought an ION was really diverse. Hatches arent as popular in the states. It shows on the sales floor when a shopper chooses another brand/ model because you cant get what they want. You can't always convince buyers to move forward with the new design just because that is all you have to offer.

I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make with your post regarding FWD-RWD. The subject is that a person stated that his GTO got stuck in just an inch of snow and it's obvious that he was running summer tires. Mine wasnt much better even with the stock KDWS brand new, IMO it isnt designed for snow driving so I have a 2nd car for that use. No need to spend more money & Time on tires.

Those that are more comfortable driving FWD will continue driving FWDs. Those that want a RWD vehicle need to know that alot of the "RWD is dangerous on anything but clear, dry roads" school of thought is incorrect.

I have experienced some good RWD vehicle's in the snow, So what? They still wouldnt be my 1st choice in bad conditions. Either way, for 20+ years people have been comfortable with FWD. Let them be.

 

The Saturn Ion was the second ugliest car to ever come out of the GM design studio. The ugliest going to the Aztek.

 

Hot topic, Let me start by saying I like the G8, but I have said from the start it was DOA. Many factors are working against it.

As for rwd-fwd, snow or not, many rwd cars will rotate their **** around on a wet ramp. I have seen MANY wrecked F-bodies, mustangs, pickups etc in the rain. A new girl just started working here and her stang has guardrail rash, I'd bet 100 dollars it happened on a wet day. I wouldn't let my wife drive a rwd vehicle. Hopefully better packaging and stability control will make things better. My coworkers aren't keen on buying their daughters mustangs either, even in the little snow they get in southern Ill. But that has nothing to do with the G8 cause nobody's buying them for their daughters, or anyone else.

I still say kill Pontiac, it has a bad rep, it will NEVER be a bmw contender. GM needs full line saturn and chevy dealers, then you upgrade to the Buick-GMC-Cadilliac dealer.

As for the Ion who cares what the sales numbers were, it DIDNT MAKE MONEY. Most small cars didn't. Heres the time that GM didn't badge engineer something, ie colbalt-G5 and everyone bitches. We asked for it, they delivered. The dollar is up over 15% against the euro in the past 4 weeks. The Astra is now competitive.

 

I love AWD, and yesterday it occurred to me why I love it so much. It's because there is no wheel hop. I have wheel hop in my Mazda3. I had wheel hop in Beretta GTZ. My Camaro Z28 also had wheel hop. When did it happen? When trying to accelerate quickly, and some wheelspin occurs, but not enough for a burnout. The AWD just picks up and pushes the car - consistently.

Having said that, the vast majority of Infinitis (G35/7, M35/45, etc), BMWs, MBs here (Toronto) are sold as RWD. People love them. Yes, there are many with AWD, but people know how to get by in the winter with RWD. Something that I notice these days more than in the past is that so many more people are getting winter tires, even on AWD vehicles.

Perhaps the NE USA is different, although in my travels to Boston and NYC I did not notice a significant number of AWD vehicles.

 

Your mistake. We purposely bought a manual Mazda3, although my wife has never driven one. I'm teaching her to drive it now, and yes, it will take a LOT of practice. Does she regret it? Nope. She wants to learn it, and I will not give up until she drives it comfortably. Granted, we went only about 3 times in the week that we have the car, but persistence and desire to learn is the motivating factor.

Our first baby is due in January. The ultrasound couldn't tell us if it's a boy or a girl, but regardless of which one, he or she will know how to drive a standard. It is by no means extinct, as some are led to believe, and a true driver should know how to drive one.

I have a similar feeling about RWD. We don't have a RWD car right now, but my wife drove her parents' mid 1980s Chevy Caprice station wagon (maybe it had a different name) at the age of 17, through the winter in Toronto. Everyone managed. And my wife is not what I call car-inclined by nature, but she learns if things are explained to her well.

My point is, you can't be intimidated by someone's lack of skill. Teach them the skill, even if it kills you trying

 

Believe me, that car didnt sell on looks Chevy definatly had the more attractive version, but regardless the people who were paying 14-16K for it were buying for value.

Other then the lack of HP, the Astra sounds like a good car! Unfortunately buyers dont seem to like Hatches (will that ever change?) and American's arent adjusted to paying higher prices for smaller cars. I think the mentality we still are living with is "if I have to spend that much then I might as well buy the substantially larger car/ suv"

 

And a winter tire is quite another thing. Which is what I would have.

Why would I do that? I might as well suggest to stick any summer tire on a FWD car and it won't move. It slides sideways just the same.

edit: and my Audi with Quattro couldn't move in 3 inches of snow with summer tires. It got stuck, yes, stuck.

 

Plus, with traction and stability control, a modern RWD will be a lot easier to drive than the mid-80s Caprice wagon -- as long as you don't try to get around with summer tires.


But I think the whole discussion points out that it's important for GM to have both FWD and RWD sedans.

 

I don't. As well as having both FWD and RWD, GM needs to market to the whole nation. For all the praises people sing about the old Grand Prix in this thread, that car was dead in California. Oh yes, I saw some on the road, but they were all rentals. People I know who got one almost universally disliked them due to the relatively cramped interior that resulted from the attempt at coupe-ish styling. The Impala is more appreciated, due to greater room.

The G8 at least sparks people's interest. Personally, I'd rather they kept the Grand Prix name, but I'm not one to get hung up over names.

 

http://www.fquick.com/blog/Pontiac_G..._canceled/2388

 

Its tough for GM to sell cars in areas where it is considered poor taste to drive a domestic car.

 

Actually, there are quite a few Camaros and 300s and Chargers around here. Also a lot of domestic pickups and SUVs. The cars just need to appeal.

I think that RWD is a key to selling here, if not for the sake of RWD, but for what it lets you do with a car. There's plenty of interest in the older American musclecars here. The GTO and now the G8 help tap into that.