Looks like a nice project. What are you putting under the hood?


-Mike

 

Have you overlooked the new supercharged Impala and MC SS? If that's not a good performance value, I don't know what is. Room for five adults, 5-star crashworthiness and 240/280 hp/tq stock. And for about $100 in parts you can be pushing 280 hp or more.

 

The package looks less desireable when you consider

-7 years ago we had a RWD LT1 Impala with more power and torque (that doesn't seem like performance progress to me)

-You can get a Nissan Maxima with more HP and an available stick for similar money. Or for that matter, the RWD G35 sedan also with more HP in base trim than the Impy SS for similar money.

I've defended the current Impala because in the end it is doing very well for Chevy sales-wise. It is the right car for the market it is going after right now, but the Impala SS is not one of your better enthusiast packages out there.

 

Don't they still cost more than a new 2004 supercharged Grand Prix? And this "Super Sport" is no faster than a regular Nissan Altima (which can be had with a 5-speed manual) or run of the mill Honda Accord V6. Without pulling up the numbers, I'd also bet that the MSRP on both of those cars is equal or lower than the "SS" despite the fact that they have smoother, more refined multicam engines, a newer design and a better *reputation* for quality. I still don't really see how I would choose the "SS" over these other cars on the basis of Value.

 

$30-31k msrp doesn't = value. Compare that to a 6spd accord v6 coupe, altima 3.5 5spd, or 6spd Maxima 3.5.

They're nice cars, but it's too pricey.

 

The base Impala SS and the base Maxima have about the same MSRP but I the SS has a rebate making it $2,000 cheaper, plus the Impala has 25 more torque.

The only disatvantage I see the Impala SS has is the it isn't offered with a Manual trans or tap shift.

 

Remember GM prices high and adjusts down with rebates. Once the rebates kick in on the 04's, you will get $4000+ off with little of no haggling....

Do that with a Honda or Nissan dealer.

Everyone jumps GM on the prices...but forgets the huge rebates that come standard....which I think is finally starting to hurt GM.

It's like Pizza Hut selling a large pizza at $25, but each one comes with a coupn for $10 off...

 

I priced a well optioned 6spd 265hp Maxima at 29.9k. This was from a base price of sub-28k. This is a car that supposed to be more "upscale" than the Impala. The Altima is more in-line/class with the Imps. Even with a 2k rebate, a similarly equipped Imp SS isn't that much cheaper.

An all-new for 2003 fully loaded Accord v6 coupe with a sport-tuned suspension, 6spd manual, 17" wheels, Satelite linked Navigation, XM radio, and every single option available goes for about $28k MSRP. Dropping the Navigation bring the price down to 26k. A fully loaded 245hp Altima can be had for around 26k as well.

Even with $2k rebates, it's no cheaper than these other cars. Would you seriously pick a 240hp S/c 3.8 Imp SS over a loaded, newer, more refined Accord v6 6spd? I seriously wouldn't.

For that reason, i wouldn't call the SS a better value...even with the rebates. A fully loaded SS should have had an MSRP of 26k, and the rebates should have priced it down to 23-24k. Only then will it be an excellent deal.

 

Formula already addressed the pricing. I agree with all his points, except the idea of rebates turning people off. Instead - I believe virtually all buyers today are fully cognizant of the rebates when they get serious about a certain vehicle. The info is available on the web, and at the dealers, and in papers for that matter in print ads. GM can offer all these incentives for a simple reason - they are the LOW-COST KING of manufacturing in North America. And when sales increase as the US economic recovery kicks in, GM can simply reduce the rebates... while the import brands will have to undertake the painful process of REAL price increases.

Smoother, more refined multicam engines? Hogwash. The Ward's-10-Best 3800 V6 is on a par with the best V6's in the class. And having owned one for years (abusing the STINK out of it all the way mind you!) I can attest to their reliability, smoothness and power/torque, all with simple pushrod design. And here's a little challenge for import fans - how would you propose jumping to 280 hp/tq on these other cars with just a $100 mod budget?

Newer design... the Impala design is just fine, thank you, with XM radio, OnStar, split-folding rear seat, 5-star crashworthiness and so on .

Quality... *yawn* not this again... I'm having another 80's flashback where everyone whines about Detroit's quality problems... whereas today, the REALITY is:

 

For now I'm going to just change the intake, carb and exhaust on the 327 that's in there. I have a spare 327 which I plan on building up in my spare time. Its going to be a father/son project and my son's daily driver, so I'll keep it mellow for now... and make it more radical later.

 

It's not that simple.

Even with Rebates, the Big 3's losing ground. Their market share this year has sunk to an all time record low. The imports on the other hand offer little to Zero rebates and are gaining market share. The only one that'll be hurt by rebates or real world pricing is the big 3. If they’re losing market share with crazy rebates now, how will they gain market share with no rebates later?

It isn't hogwash, and the 3.8 is far from being on par with the best. I've owned a 99 accord v6 coupe and i can tell you it's worlds better than the 3.8 in my sisters GP. The Nissan VQ and Honda 3.0/3.2 are world-class v6’s, something that can’t be said of the 3.8. These engines are in class with the new 3.6 used in the 2004 CTS's, not the 3.8's.

As for the 280hp for 100 dollars, that's something the comp can't match. I doubt the regular buyers in this class care for modifying their engines though. A few certainly will though, and that’ll work out in the S/c 3.8’s advantage. But that’s fine, I’m willing to trade in that 40hp potential with a nice factory 6spd manual with less drive-train loss. And unless it has been fixed, that A4 in the Imp has weak links which can seriously hamper serious Hp/tq gains. It probably wouldn’t be too safe to venture past 280hp. From what I remember, the tranny had been the biggest limiting factor with the previous gen GTP’s. Have the weak links been fixed?

The competition offers that, a fresher look, an available manual tranny, and even a little more (like navigation) for less. Just take a look at the accord.

Initial quality (1st 90 days) from the big-3 is nice, but long-term quality is yet to be proven. The imports on the other hand have decades of good track record behind their name. When it comes to proven vs unproven, i'll settle for proven anyday of the year. Reputations aren’t built overnight. Even by today’s standards, the big 3 still have room to make up. The quality may have improved, but I wouldn’t exactly put it on the same level as Honda/Toyota just yet.

Long term tests will put everything to rest. Of course, that'll take some years. GM is headed in the right direction though. If they keep it up, they'll someday have the same good reputation as Honda/Toyota.

 

Why'd you get rid of the gold 68?

There's just something about 1st gens. There's a clean white SS with Blue Leman stripe going down the middle around my hood. From the way it sounds (sounds mean and shakes at idle....Yikes!!!), it must be heavily modified.

Btw, how much'd you sell the 68 for?

 

This is because the average consumer percieves the Honda or Nissan to be of greater value than the GM product. Instead of undercutting their pricing, GM offers rebates as a "value equilizer."

I'm waiting for them to start selling Cavaliers with $15,000 rebates and a $27,000 MSRP.

 

If all you care to focus on is sales revenue, market share is the number to watch. But as I mentioned before, PROFIT is what matters most in corporate business. And GM is well-positioned to bring that in now, with COST under control. Sales volume and share will follow in due course. In the meantime, GM is in the process of bombarding the market with new products for enthusiasts... the Silverado SS, the SSR, CTS, CTS-V, GTO, H2, Z06, GTP CompG, and yes Impala/MC SS. What's Honda CREATED (not cloned, CREATED) lately that blows away its customers? (Aside from the obscene Element). The Accord has an anonymous nose, absolutely no soul in its door metal, and no trunk. Niiice silver sedan, just like all the others.... zzz....

Worlds better, how? Needs no gas? Infinite torque? Methinks you exaggerate. All I know is the numbers... and stock, this wonder-6 from Honda has a serious torque deficiency. That ALONE was enough to eliminate it from contention when I went shopping and ended up with my 04 GTP CompG.

Speak for yourself. Maybe that's true for a Honda or Nissan buyer, they do have a pretty hopeless situation. But the Impala SS buyer has a cornucopia of affordable performance parts, since the trail was blazed in the last few years by thousands of GTP and Regal GS owners and consequently there are many affordable parts for the world-class L67 3800 V6.

Um... OK (a manual gives a FORTY HP advantage????). But the days of big-time auto trans power loss are long gone. Modern automatics are right up on a par with manuals. The one edge offered by a manual, shift quickness, is also going away as manumatics get more affordable and responsive.

Ho-hum. Old news, old facts. Put a $50 trans cooler on and you're good for at least 300 hp. If you're planning on going way over 300 hp in any of the FWD cars mentioned above, you should plan on a custom-built trans regardless of the car's make.

Fine. The Impala still beats them, according to edmunds.com:

http://edmunds.com/new/2004/chevrole...3.1.chevrolet*

Edmunds says the true market price on a new Impala SS is $25,856.

 

Boy, this has got to be about the worst pro-Big Three argument one could make right now. GM managed to earn about $1.7B last year on sales of about $185B, which means their margin was less than 1%. Toyota made $11.5B, while Honda made over $3B. Ouch. If you want to talk market cap, GM's is floating at around a third of Toyota.

And the main reason that everyone is focused on market share is because that's what GM wanted everyone to focus on after the incentives started flying. They wanted to hit 30% market share by now, and made absolutely no secret of that fact.

So, if you let the incentives fly to gain market share and fail at that, and if those same incentives massively cut profits, then what'd you really accomplish? I think I know the answer, but it's not very intuitive and so I'm curious to see if anyone else guesses the same