teal98

About the Lincoln LS . . .

But I bet the Zephyr is much more profitable. The Zephyr is a Fusion with some more "stuff".

The LS shared a platform with the Jag S-type. Actual transaction prices are higher on the Zephyr than they were on the LS V6 in its last year (according to sale prices I see in newspaper ads).


I think flowmotion has a point. The Lincoln LS was a Jag S-type at a discount price, yet it sold poorly. I think there are a number of reasons for that, that have nothing to do with the platform (styling, engine, image of Lincoln).


The car I want from Ford is the Falcon, anyway, so I don't really care what they do with Lincoln (unless they brought it over and sold it as a Lincoln). That 4l I6 turbo with ZF auto (or maybe the manual) looks like a lot of fun.

SSCamaro99_3

flowmotion

Zephyr was another Old Ladies car, like the LS you are advocating. Ford showed a rare bit of smarts changing directions so quickly rather than riding out another sales failure.

I will agree with you that it's still not the most exciting thing in the world.

Common sense is rebuiliding the brand with a younger customer base, not throwing V8s at the problem.

I should also note that with Lincoln's big chrome grilles and square gauges, they're showing quite a bit of traditional "American Luxury".

Good Ph.D

Im done with it. To summarize let me say this. Shoot for the moon and you will land among the stars.

I would much rather they fail at competing with Cadillac and Lexus, then fail at competing with Acura and Infiniti.

I would much rather they fail with a Lincoln that was a based off a Jaguar that didn't sell, then fail with Lincoln based off a Ford that does not sell.

But thats just me. If you can sell 10 Zephyrs for $2 as apposed to updating the LS and selling 15 at $1.25, who am I to argue?

If reducing three brands to a singularity, based on four vehicles sold with three different badges while simulataneoulsy throwing money at unprofitable high end brands while ignoring the componets you ALREADY HAVE that both ends of your product line need makes you money... Who am I to argue.

But thats not making any money is it? So I think I'll argue all I want.

teal98

Or impact on the surface?

Actually, Infiniti's product model is closer to the Cadillac and Lexus model. Infiniti trucks are based on common chassis (like Cadillac and Lexus), and the cars are based on RWD platforms mostly not shared with Nissan.

I think it's really hard for a corporation to manage three premium brands that overlap as much as Ford's do. They've actually done pretty well keeping Volvo and Jaguar separate, but it doesn't leave much room for Lincoln, except in big cars. The LS was too close to the Jag S-type. The MKZ is certainly distinct from the Jag, but what distinguishes it from the Volvo S60?

Good Ph.D

Im WELL aware of that... Honda is the only brand that thinks hmmm, all our competitors are making V8 sports cars and super cars with V12... So lets make... a V6 SUPERCAR!!!!1111!!!1two ZOMGZ they'll love what we did there.

And thats what you're going to try to emulate? Acura was the first Japanese Luxury brand and yet Lexus and Infiniti are worlds ahead...

Of course that doesen't have anything to do with limp dick powertrains, utterly forgettable styling. No no, lets compete by not being competitive.

Because there is no market for large powerful luxury cars, or even fairly large moderately powerful entry luxury cars... Which is why MercedesBMWCadillacBuickChryslerInfinitiLexus don't make them... and why they sell so many fewer cars then we do.

No no... its $40,000 four cylinders that people want... And we have the numbers to prove it.

And to your other point I dont think its all that unmanageable, just takes focus.

teal98

Okay. But you did lump Infiniti with Acura previously.

If it were up to me, Lincoln would be getting the stretch Falcon with a premium interior and upgraded components.

But you know, Acura is making a lot of money selling upgraded Accords for $35K. If Lincoln can make money selling upgraded Fusions for $32K, good for them.

The MKZ is a $30000 car, and it has a decent V6. Or are you talking about $40K Acuras (the RDX, I guess)?

Omegalock

So we are going to stereotype a hot rod now?
Sorry but if that happens it'll more than hold it's own.

flowmotion

Go ahead, but please don't stick words into my mouth. I never said anything about 4cyl or that V8s "don't sell". Makes you look like you got that PhD in a box of crackerjacks.

guionM

No, just a modest flash of sanity.

I'm starting to get a bit pessimistic again.

ehaase

I feel a tiny bit more positive.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...609220390/1148

guionM

Lincoln LS was selling like hotcakes when it 1st came out in 2000, and was still in a see-saw sales race with the Cadillac CTS till about the late 2004 early 2005 timeframe when sales started to droop and then tumbled. To me, that seems more like the design went stale.

The story is the same with the whole Lincoln line. The Navigator once made the Escalade look like a weak and lame wannabe. The new restyled Navigator looked identical to the old one, Escalade is on it's 3rd distinctive look. Town Car. Looks much like it did back in '99. The DTS is on it's 2nd restyling since then.

Lincoln created the performance sedan with their McLauren LS. Ford killed the project (and left McLauren in a pickle in the process), GM created the CTSv. Lincoln created a 2 seat droptop concept back in the late 1990s and an updated one a few years ago, and still doesn't have on in production. GM took the idea and created the XLR.

A mere 7 years ago, Lincoln was still putting a serious smackdown on Cadillac. Ford forfeited Lincoln's position while GM backed up Cadillac. Nasser had plans to fix that (one of the few areas he deserves credit). Ford management dismantled those programs even though they didn't need to (DEW was already in production. Variations wouldn't have been a big cost issue).

Now Cadillac and Lincoln switched positions from where they were in the 1980s and most all of the 90s.

Ford has no one to blame but themselves.

teal98

I wonder how much of Lincoln's problem comes from Ford not wanting to show up Jaguar? Or rather, wanting Jaguar to show up Ford?

I never saw the point of such a tiny V8 (Jag stretched it to 4.2 and LR stretched to 4.4), except that it had to be smaller than Jag's. The V6 was also a few HP behind Jag. I think the reason that they starved the Lincoln was because they were putting the money into Jag (too bad that hasn't worked).

With more money, Ford could have given product to both, and I guess that was the Nasser plan. I wonder what the net result would have been?

I still think that a premium Falcon is a better plan for Lincoln than a cut-rate Jag. It'd be larger, with a bigger engine (i.e. more American ).

Any intel on whether the next Falcon will move beyond its current markets?

Good Ph.D

THANK YOU.

Don't tell me Lincoln is damaged, demographic is to old...when Cadillac has turned around a brand that was as bad or worse in equal time.

Don't tell me no one wants to buy a big gregarious sedan when every major luxury or entry luxury brand (guess who that excludes) has one that sells.

Don't tell me that cars that Lincoln was bull****ting around with years ago that are now in production from other brands and selling, wouldn't sell if they had a crosshair on them.



That reminds me of something... Cant quite put my finger on it.



Hmmm...