Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
10-26-2005, 03:59 PM
#32
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
Did I say I didn't understand why the GT is priced as it is? No. I understand basic economics, economies of scale, etc. etc. Thank you for assuming I'm am idiot.
I also realize Ford's goal was a Halo car. Mission accomplished.
My point, HOWEVER, (which you apparently missed) is that their halo car, the one they hung their heritage and self-esteem on, just got beat by a car 1/2 its price that required a ton less effort.
Don't you think that sort of takes the glow off the halo?
No, I understand that perfectly. You're wrong because you've made an assumption (again, there you go ASSuming again) about what I do and do not understand. I also understand that this is no less embarrassing for Ford than it would be to GM if Ford built a $30,000 Mustang, taking advantage of all the volume of the Mustang line, that would beat the Z06.
I remember all the Mustang fanboys on here making arguments about the '03 Cobra being equal to the Z06 or even faster in the 1/4 mile. At the time all the GM fanboys were making the argument "well its still not a Corvette". While, true, its a weak argument from several perspectives. But that was a discussion of a $35K car vs a $50K car. For $15K less Ford had matched GM's best car in one measure of performance (1/4 mile).
Now the tables are turned and Ford's best argument to being equaled and surpassed by a car for 1/2 the price is "Yeah but its not an exotic". Its all a matter of degree, dude. We're now talking about a car that for $70,000 less dollars matches or beats the GT in every facet of performance.
You cannot sit here and with a straight face tell me that the Z06 hasn't knocked the crap eating grin off the GT development team's faces.
Some of you guys want to make it out like the Corvette is white trash compared to the GT. I'll tell you what: when the GT gets its own museum then maybe we'll talk about "heritage".
I also realize Ford's goal was a Halo car. Mission accomplished.
My point, HOWEVER, (which you apparently missed) is that their halo car, the one they hung their heritage and self-esteem on, just got beat by a car 1/2 its price that required a ton less effort.
Don't you think that sort of takes the glow off the halo?
No, I understand that perfectly. You're wrong because you've made an assumption (again, there you go ASSuming again) about what I do and do not understand. I also understand that this is no less embarrassing for Ford than it would be to GM if Ford built a $30,000 Mustang, taking advantage of all the volume of the Mustang line, that would beat the Z06.
I remember all the Mustang fanboys on here making arguments about the '03 Cobra being equal to the Z06 or even faster in the 1/4 mile. At the time all the GM fanboys were making the argument "well its still not a Corvette". While, true, its a weak argument from several perspectives. But that was a discussion of a $35K car vs a $50K car. For $15K less Ford had matched GM's best car in one measure of performance (1/4 mile).
Now the tables are turned and Ford's best argument to being equaled and surpassed by a car for 1/2 the price is "Yeah but its not an exotic". Its all a matter of degree, dude. We're now talking about a car that for $70,000 less dollars matches or beats the GT in every facet of performance.
You cannot sit here and with a straight face tell me that the Z06 hasn't knocked the crap eating grin off the GT development team's faces.
Some of you guys want to make it out like the Corvette is white trash compared to the GT. I'll tell you what: when the GT gets its own museum then maybe we'll talk about "heritage".
I love you...
10-26-2005, 04:03 PM
#33
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
We can talk about the pros and cons of each car all day. The fact is, there are many for each. Each car is a phenominal piece and has purposes. Some of those purposes are just as different as the pros and cons. We are not quite talking apples to apples here.
The GT 500 is one hell of a neat car, but the Z06 is the upper eschelon for "bang for the buck". It is a world-class performance car that is suddenly pushed a bit out of its own league an edging into another. That's great for the GM team and the Chevrolet brand, but that does not say anything bad about the other cars unless you are talking about sheer performance numbers. The experience of driving any of those cars should be taken into consideration (handling, driver feel, etc.). I am sure that driving a GT 500 is like driving no other car.
But...I gotta end this with something interesting...
The GT 500 has a supercharger...what if that Z06 did as well?
Look out.
The GT 500 is one hell of a neat car, but the Z06 is the upper eschelon for "bang for the buck". It is a world-class performance car that is suddenly pushed a bit out of its own league an edging into another. That's great for the GM team and the Chevrolet brand, but that does not say anything bad about the other cars unless you are talking about sheer performance numbers. The experience of driving any of those cars should be taken into consideration (handling, driver feel, etc.). I am sure that driving a GT 500 is like driving no other car.
But...I gotta end this with something interesting...
The GT 500 has a supercharger...what if that Z06 did as well?
Look out.
10-26-2005, 04:04 PM
#34
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
Would this change if the GT had 5 more years of production? I honestly think not, with things rumored to be in the pipes atm (LS9 anyone?) and the 427 being so insanely bottlenecked, im sure GM could match/beat the GT until ford decided to pull the plug.
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
In the same breath lets take into account the Z06 isnt just a base vette', it is apples to oranges, so much is different under the Z06's skin and yet it remains affordable 
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
When you make the claims your car is going to be to compete with high end exotics, its kinda sad to lose to a budget domestic, i think this is what your missing. Dont shoot high, then land on your face. Ford has a mouthful of foot, this is nothing unusal tho'.
I don't get your logic. Yes, Ford made the claim that they can compete with the likes of the Ferrari 360/430 and Lambo Gallardo and they HAVE. What does losing to a budget domestic have to do with them failing to compete with the above mentioned exotics?
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
Price accordingly, and fails miserably? Thats a bad combo, you aim for the Euro high ends, and lose on your home ground. Ford accomplished little with the GT is the point, they created a car with an amazing price tag and nestalgic exterior ques, well that just doesnt cut it. Exclusivness aside (which every GT fan falls back on) the Ford GT just doesnt suit its rediculous price tag, and falls short everywhere it went to dominate.
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
Better have a big garage 
10-26-2005, 04:13 PM
#36
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Let me just say the whole point of cars like these being made are for bragging rights among the companies.
Its got to hurt your bragging rights quotient when the other kid on the block knocks the ball a little farther than you did only had to swing 1/2 as hard.
I think I smell whiffs of 6.2L supercharged Z06s....
Its got to hurt your bragging rights quotient when the other kid on the block knocks the ball a little farther than you did only had to swing 1/2 as hard.
I think I smell whiffs of 6.2L supercharged Z06s....
10-26-2005, 04:17 PM
#37
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by Gold_Rush
Any company with the desire to do so can one up the other if that was simply the goal. Let's just make that point clear. It isn't like GM is the ONLY one capable of doing the topping.
And that's why it remains affordable.
That same budget domestic (z06) puts on an even BIGGER whooping on the high-end exotics like the Ferrari 430, Lambo Gallardo, etc...
I don't get your logic. Yes, Ford made the claim that they can compete with the likes of the Ferrari 360/430 and Lambo Gallardo and they HAVE. What does losing to a budget domestic have to do with them failing to compete with the above mentioned exotics?
Again, i fail to see you logic here. See above. The GT is more than competitive with the cars in its class.
Garage space isn't the issue....it's affording to get both into my garage that is.
And that's why it remains affordable.
That same budget domestic (z06) puts on an even BIGGER whooping on the high-end exotics like the Ferrari 430, Lambo Gallardo, etc...
I don't get your logic. Yes, Ford made the claim that they can compete with the likes of the Ferrari 360/430 and Lambo Gallardo and they HAVE. What does losing to a budget domestic have to do with them failing to compete with the above mentioned exotics?
Again, i fail to see you logic here. See above. The GT is more than competitive with the cars in its class.
Garage space isn't the issue....it's affording to get both into my garage that is.
this is arguing just to argue, if it lost to a neon you would say "Well it still hangs with the Supercars it was intended to!" which is not my point, going after the biggiest guy in the bar and winning just to have your face smashed in by the guy you didnt even think was a contendor isnt only embarassing, but its actually funny.
Thats basically what happened here, they didnt even see the Z06 as a threat, so they didnt choose to mention it, so just because it wasnt mentioned in name doesnt mean it wasnt supposed to be a given the GT would smoke Z06's. Face it all arguements wont be changing the facts, the GT set out to compete with Euro-Supercars and did well! With a $150,000 price tag. GM came to do the same thing, and did so better! For $68,000. If you cant see the point in that statement then
10-26-2005, 04:37 PM
#38
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by RussStang
What is debatable is just how important exclusitivity is.
Pacer X: so was that previous head to head comparison not on the same day, with the same conditions, etc? I am refering to the one in Automobile where the GT edged out the Z06 around the roadcourse.
10-26-2005, 04:43 PM
#39
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
Did I say I didn't understand why the GT is priced as it is? No. I understand basic economics, economies of scale, etc. etc. Thank you for assuming I'm am idiot.
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
Now the tables are turned and Ford's best argument to being equaled and surpassed by a car for 1/2 the price is "Yeah but its not an exotic". Its all a matter of degree, dude. We're now talking about a car that for $70,000 less dollars matches or beats the GT in every facet of performance.
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
You cannot sit here and with a straight face tell me that the Z06 hasn't knocked the crap eating grin off the GT development team's faces.
Some of you guys have a hard time understanding that the Ford GT team and the corvette team had a very different set of goals. Each had their own set of goals, and each succeeded in what they've gone out to accomplish.
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
Some of you guys want to make it out like the Corvette is white trash compared to the GT. I'll tell you what: when the GT gets its own museum then maybe we'll talk about "heritage".
Last edited by Gold_Rush; 10-26-2005 at 04:45 PM.
10-26-2005, 04:56 PM
#40
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Let me start this off first by saying, I am a diehard Chevrolet man to the bone and will always prefer and love Chevy above all others.
However...
To say the GT has no heritage is downright foolish.
The Ford GT-40 was the first American built sports car to go to LeMans and kick the Euros' ***. Ford wanted to buy Ferrari and when Enzo declined the GT-40 was born to beat Ferrari at LeMans. To disrespect the heritage and racing dominance of the GT-40 is anti-American. (After all, they changed the FIA sports car racing rules because of the GT-40.)
The Ford GT-40 has always been the ultimate American racecar. Ford tried to capture the essence of the GT-40 in the production Ford GT. (Please don't confuse the two.) Ford actually hit a home run imo and created a rare and collectible version that those that could never afford to buy a real GT-40 could own for a fraction of the cost without totally bastardizing the GT-40's heritage and exclusivity. The intent was never to create something as common as a Z06 or Viper (if either could ever be considered common).
Yes, today we Chevy fans can gloat on the Z06's superiority on the track against the Ford GT. However, does anyone here think Ford is resting on their laurels? What if Ford is working on a Z06 killer that would be just as exciting and affordable as the competition? What if it will be much more common and available to the average enthusiast? What if its priced cheaper than the Z06 is today?
I'm sure by the time GM comes out with a Mustang competitor, it will kick the Mustang's butt in similar tests. All the while while Ford is working on a better Mustang under wraps. These are good times my friends. If this is what the future holds, performance aint dead in Detroit. The Z06 may be king now, but I wouldn't expect Ford (and Dodge for that matter) to be taking this lying down.
However...
To say the GT has no heritage is downright foolish.
The Ford GT-40 was the first American built sports car to go to LeMans and kick the Euros' ***. Ford wanted to buy Ferrari and when Enzo declined the GT-40 was born to beat Ferrari at LeMans. To disrespect the heritage and racing dominance of the GT-40 is anti-American. (After all, they changed the FIA sports car racing rules because of the GT-40.)
The Ford GT-40 has always been the ultimate American racecar. Ford tried to capture the essence of the GT-40 in the production Ford GT. (Please don't confuse the two.) Ford actually hit a home run imo and created a rare and collectible version that those that could never afford to buy a real GT-40 could own for a fraction of the cost without totally bastardizing the GT-40's heritage and exclusivity. The intent was never to create something as common as a Z06 or Viper (if either could ever be considered common).
Yes, today we Chevy fans can gloat on the Z06's superiority on the track against the Ford GT. However, does anyone here think Ford is resting on their laurels? What if Ford is working on a Z06 killer that would be just as exciting and affordable as the competition? What if it will be much more common and available to the average enthusiast? What if its priced cheaper than the Z06 is today?
I'm sure by the time GM comes out with a Mustang competitor, it will kick the Mustang's butt in similar tests. All the while while Ford is working on a better Mustang under wraps. These are good times my friends. If this is what the future holds, performance aint dead in Detroit. The Z06 may be king now, but I wouldn't expect Ford (and Dodge for that matter) to be taking this lying down.
10-26-2005, 05:01 PM
#41
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
this is arguing just to argue, if it lost to a neon you would say "Well it still hangs with the Supercars it was intended to!"
.
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
which is not my point, going after the biggiest guy in the bar and winning just to have your face smashed in by the guy you didnt even think was a contendor isnt only embarassing, but its actually funny.
Btw: The z06 wasn't really around during that barfight till later on
. Assuming the barfight symbolizes the GT's development stage.
Originally Posted by FutureZMan
Face it all arguements wont be changing the facts, the GT set out to compete with Euro-Supercars and did well! With a $150,000 price tag. GM came to do the same thing, and did so better! For $68,000. If you cant see the point in that statement then
Anyways, Ford fan-boys had their little celebrations with their GT, and i guess GM fan-boys will now have theirs.
10-26-2005, 05:07 PM
#42
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by jg95z28
Let me start this off first by saying, I am a diehard Chevrolet man to the bone and will always prefer and love Chevy above all others.
However...
To say the GT has no heritage is downright foolish.
The Ford GT-40 was the first American built sports car to go to LeMans and kick the Euros' ***. Ford wanted to buy Ferrari and when Enzo declined the GT-40 was born to beat Ferrari at LeMans. To disrespect the heritage and racing dominance of the GT-40 is anti-American. (After all, they changed the FIA sports car racing rules because of the GT-40.)
The Ford GT-40 has always been the ultimate American racecar. Ford tried to capture the essence of the GT-40 in the production Ford GT. (Please don't confuse the two.) Ford actually hit a home run imo and created a rare and collectible version that those that could never afford to buy a real GT-40 could own for a fraction of the cost without totally bastardizing the GT-40's heritage and exclusivity. The intent was never to create something as common as a Z06 or Viper (if either could ever be considered common).
Yes, today we Chevy fans can gloat on the Z06's superiority on the track against the Ford GT. However, does anyone here think Ford is resting on their laurels? What if Ford is working on a Z06 killer that would be just as exciting and affordable as the competition? What if it will be much more common and available to the average enthusiast? What if its priced cheaper than the Z06 is today?
I'm sure by the time GM comes out with a Mustang competitor, it will kick the Mustang's butt in similar tests. All the while while Ford is working on a better Mustang under wraps. These are good times my friends. If this is what the future holds, performance aint dead in Detroit. The Z06 may be king now, but I wouldn't expect Ford (and Dodge for that matter) to be taking this lying down.
However...
To say the GT has no heritage is downright foolish.
The Ford GT-40 was the first American built sports car to go to LeMans and kick the Euros' ***. Ford wanted to buy Ferrari and when Enzo declined the GT-40 was born to beat Ferrari at LeMans. To disrespect the heritage and racing dominance of the GT-40 is anti-American. (After all, they changed the FIA sports car racing rules because of the GT-40.)
The Ford GT-40 has always been the ultimate American racecar. Ford tried to capture the essence of the GT-40 in the production Ford GT. (Please don't confuse the two.) Ford actually hit a home run imo and created a rare and collectible version that those that could never afford to buy a real GT-40 could own for a fraction of the cost without totally bastardizing the GT-40's heritage and exclusivity. The intent was never to create something as common as a Z06 or Viper (if either could ever be considered common).
Yes, today we Chevy fans can gloat on the Z06's superiority on the track against the Ford GT. However, does anyone here think Ford is resting on their laurels? What if Ford is working on a Z06 killer that would be just as exciting and affordable as the competition? What if it will be much more common and available to the average enthusiast? What if its priced cheaper than the Z06 is today?
I'm sure by the time GM comes out with a Mustang competitor, it will kick the Mustang's butt in similar tests. All the while while Ford is working on a better Mustang under wraps. These are good times my friends. If this is what the future holds, performance aint dead in Detroit. The Z06 may be king now, but I wouldn't expect Ford (and Dodge for that matter) to be taking this lying down.
Thank you very much
10-26-2005, 05:52 PM
#43
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by jg95z28
However, does anyone here think Ford is resting on their laurels?
Yes. They could have followed up on the GT's heritage by racing it in something, but instead were satysfied when the GT beat down on a Ferrari that has been out since 2000. I think it is ridiculous that a car with such an awesome past is not being put to use again to show Ford's engineering and racing expertise. Certainly seems like they don't want their baby tarnished, although it is already getting tarnished before they even finish building all of the damn things. Yes, the GT beat some of the exotics, but Ferrari is already moving on with their F430, and will have a hotter street version of it, Lambo is coming out with a higher output Gallardo, I am sure we will see an upgrade from Dodge for the Viper, likewise for Porsche an their 997 Turbo model, and now Chevy has topped the damn things as well. It wasn't on top for very long at all.
It doesn't come off well to me that a car that everyone has been bragging "is a bargain at its pricepoint" is starting to get smacked around by its competition already. I certainly hope Ford has a car to answer back to the vette with, and they are just hiding its development really, really well.
10-26-2005, 06:28 PM
#44
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Originally Posted by RussStang
Yes. They could have followed up on the GT's heritage by racing it in something, but instead were satysfied when the GT beat down on a Ferrari that has been out since 2000. I think it is ridiculous that a car with such an awesome past is not being put to use again to show Ford's engineering and racing expertise.
Originally Posted by RussStang
Yes, the GT beat some of the exotics, but Ferrari is already moving on with their F430, and will have a hotter street version of it, Lambo is coming out with a higher output Gallardo, I am sure we will see an upgrade from Dodge for the Viper, likewise for Porsche an their 997 Turbo model, and now Chevy has topped the damn things as well. It wasn't on top for very long at all.
. I haven't even heard of this Lambo, the 997 turbo will be lucky to even crack 500hp, and the F430 already costs alot more and doesn't even top the GT. The Challenge stradale version will have like a 225k price tag and would probably manage to just edge the GT. And by then, the GT will have been out of production and those newer cars would have the benifit of benchmarking (newer car is expected to perform better). Where are you getting all this from btw??
All speculation. Hell, we've seen more concrete evidence from Ford on a future supercar (GR1 concept, shelby cobra concept anyone???) than we have on any of the companies you've mentioned, yet you didn't even bother mentioning the real possibility of Ford bringing either Cobra or GR1 into production. Guess it wouldn't bode well with your argument???Let me refresh your mind, both GR1 and Cobra were based off the GT platform with lots of carryover parts. Clearly, production feasibility was the goal here. Both were powered by a 605hp 6.4L N/A v10. And both should be significantly cheaper than the current GT (since alot of parts and engineering were initially done for and paid for by GT). So would this car hold its own against the cars you've mentioned? I'd hope and expect so. Right now, it doesn't make much fiscal sense NOT to have a replacement for the GT after a short 2 year stint.
Originally Posted by RussStang
It doesn't come off well to me that a car that everyone has been bragging "is a bargain at its pricepoint" is starting to get smacked around by its competition already. I certainly hope Ford has a car to answer back to the vette with, and they are just hiding its development really, really well.
As for Ford's vette competitor, i don't think we'll see one anytime soon. But we should see a replacement for the Ford GT however.
10-26-2005, 08:36 PM
#45
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Re: Same day, same dyno, same track Z06 vs. Viper vs. GTurd
Dang thats impressive. The Z06 is awesome and currently my absolute favorite car out there. However I'd also take a GT to anyday of the week. In person the car is HOT and would turn heads whereever you went.....