I hate T-tops. In '01 I originally looked for a Formula to avoid T-tops (I prefer Firebirds). I couldn't find one Formula in the Western US with a manual and a color I liked such as NB/Black/... So I broke down and bought an '01 WS6 when I heard that all '02 Firebirds would come with T-tops. Otherwise I would've special ordered a Formula.

 

I agree with the Targa idea. It looks bada@$$ on a supra. Camaro even better!

 

I think offering various displacement V-8's makes more sense than offering both V-6 and V-8 options. Starting with a 250 hp/4.5 L V-8, then a 325 hp/5.3L V-8 and ending with a 400 hp/6.0 V-8, would make sense to me if all 3 are based on the same engine architecture. From an engineering and production perspective, wouldn't this be simpler and more cost-effective than offering engines based on different architectures?

And when is Hydramatic going to give us a world-class auto? The 700r4/4L60 family was never meant for any performance-oriented use, and with entry-level foreign econoboxes now offering close-ratio 5-speed auto's, GM's line of slushboxes seem the epitome of obselete. If Hydramatic can build 5 and 6 speed autos for BMW, why can't they do the same for GM product?

 

The way it was explained to me is that each individual engine has to be tested & certified. Then it has to sell in sufficient quanities to be profitable. It's easy to do when you are selling hundreds of thousands of trucks per year, but today it's not possible selling just 100-200 thousand vehicles per year.

In a way I can see the logic they have. A smaller V8 isn't going to give better fuel economy than the bigger one. And when you get to a point the smaller V8 does give notably better economy than the bigger V8, it's power is no better than a V6. You can't run the car with all V8s because there are people who want V6s. Also, smaller V8s don't save on insurence costs.

I for one favor a 5.3 V8 as a mid engine option, but it ain't gonna happen. The best we can hope for is an LS2 and LS6 versions of the 6.0.

As for having a world class transmission from GM, Rolls Royce used GM Turbo400 transmissions for probabally more years than you have been alive (and GM air conditioning till 1987).

General Motor's automatic transmissions have also found their way into BMWs throughout the 90s, and many other brands you would never expect to see them.

So, I would imagine that makes General Motor's automatic transmissions "world class" now, doesn't it.

 

I've heard recently ...don't know how reliable the source is ...that the Camaro will debut with the 5.3 not the LS2.

Also, is the 5th gen not supposed to sell in the 100K unit range annually? That should be enough volume for a 3 engine line-up ...base V6, 5.3, and a premium package with a 6 liter. Seems to me that the Mustang clearly demonstrates the benefit of 3 levels of performance, especially if a more user friendly package is produced.

If Kappa can be profitable in the sub $20K range certifying and selling only 20K units a year per model, gen5 should be able to do the same.

 

If the top model only had a 5.3 I'd consider looking elsewhere or waiting for an LS2.

 

Can you elaborate on your sources?

 

PoSSum, your source may have been talking about the "platform", not specifically the Camaro.

This platform will be used by at least 4 different divisions (and maybe 5), be made in at least 2 sizes, have at least 2 body styles (and maybe even 3), and have 2 separate drivetrain setups.

5.3 is part of the program, but that doesn't mean automaticlly it's Camaro's.

Also, the platform is expected to sell over 100,000 per year. I would also imagine that the Kappa program is serving as a model of sorts for this (multiple models, chassis variation, business case, etc...)

That's "assuming" this platform even exists, of course.

 

I suppose next you're going to say "That's "assuming" it has 4 wheels, of course! Or even a steering wheel for that matter!"

 

Yep!

 

As for having a world class transmission from GM, Rolls Royce used GM Turbo400 transmissions for probabally more years than you have been alive (and GM air conditioning till 1987).

General Motor's automatic transmissions have also found their way into BMWs throughout the 90s, and many other brands you would never expect to see them.

So, I would imagine that makes General Motor's automatic transmissions "world class" now, doesn't it.

If you'd read through my entire statement (instead of just seeing the parts you didn't lke), you would have noticed I mentioned the fact that Hydramatic builds auto's for BMW. And those trannies ARE world-class! Unfortunately, those of us who prefer domestic GM rear-drive product are stuck with the sad-sack 4L60E. Hydramatic has been building the Bimmers 5-speed auto (and now the 6-speed variation) for over 6 years. Why is it asking so much to want a modern (and hopefully stronger) slushbox for domestically-made rear-drive Bowties?

Since this discussion is based around the possiblity of a future Camaro, I'm baffled as to why you would use a product that hasn't been manufactured for over a decade as an illustration for world-class. World-class implies a product that is among the best in it's category, in the present day. Rochester fuel-injection was state-of-the-art in the fifties. But I sure wouldn't swap it over a modern EFI setup and expect world-class performance.

Yes, I know the TH400 was used in Rolls' for many a year (btw, I was born 7 years before the TH400 was introduced). Not to mention Jag used the TH350 throughout it's model range before Ford bought them out. But who cares? It doesn't make those two trannies MODERN world-class examples. They were good in their day, but that day is long since gone. I'll reiterate that for you, in case you didn't catch it the first time. Hydramatic does NOT have a modern, world-class auto tranny for domestic rear-drive passenger vehicles.

 

You can't run the car with all V8s because there are people who want V6s.

People don't want a V-6 in a F-body, they settle for it. A V-6 lowers the cost of entry or it gives better fuel economy than a much larger V-8. Given a choice between a 6 or an 8, with both having the same retail and both with identical fuel economy, most F-body buyers will opt for the 8. The price difference between the two is mostly artificial, the margins on V-6 F-bodies is MUCH lower than on their V-8 brethren. As for fuel economy, if the fourth-gen's could return 28 mpg from a 5.7 L V-8, I see no reason why a fifth-gen with a 4.5 L V-8 couldn't hit 33 - 34 mpg. If you insist on better fuel economy than that, you should be shopping Cavaliers not Camaros.

Also, smaller V8s don't save on insurence costs.

I'd check with your insurance agent before making a statement like that. One of the reasons the Mustang outsold the fourthgens so consistently is the much lower insurance rates garnered by the 4.6 L V-8.

Finally, look at Camaro sales when multiple V-8 options were offered vs when only one V-8 was available. That should be a clear indicator that Camaro customers want a V-8, even when they can't afford the top-dog motor.

 

But it doesn't have to be this way. Plenty of people buy V6 Mustangs not because they feel they settled for it but rather because it was the perfect car for them. Sporty, gets decent gas milage, and in Camaro's case, a step up from a Cavalier (or Cobalt, hopefully.)

You're new around here so I'll point out that this myth has been debunked several times. People on this board have often found that LS1 Z28's were cheaper to insure than comparable Mustang GT's. Obviously it depends on each person's specific circumstances but one of the biggest factors in insurance rates among cars are the sheer number of claims on the models, not horsepower or size of engine alone.

 

Jus to add to and expand on this subject....I cut the following from a post on another forum. It had to go in 2 post because of lenght.


"If you read between the lines there is some interesting stuff about the Corvette.
Work on a new 5th generation Camaro, though GM will tell you different, began about two years ago in almost a skunkworks fashion. It was a difficult task for GM to perform in secret especially during the acrimonious final year of the fourth generation Camaro. GM constantly referring to the Camaro being on “Hiatus” is a sure sign that they were not fully giving up on the Camaro. Initial work was largely marketing studies, seeing what potential Camaro buyer must have, would like to have, and defiantly don’t want. This kind of research is done before engineering and design on a new car program. Camaro is the 3rd most recognized name in GM’s portfolio, and it has understandably become notion at GM that it had to come back. The current team working on the new Camaro is pushing to build a car that will be appealing not only when it’s released, but 5-7 years later (as far out as 2015!). That means for the most part that retro is out, which is good for Bob Lutz, who dislikes such design to begin with. GM does not want another T-bird or new Beetle, as their sales do not hold up well over time. Initially in the development process, Cadillac’s Sigma platform was considered the leading architecture for which to base the new Camaro. Several issues however came up with this choice, the first one of which being the cost of the Cadillac platform which was not designed with Chevrolet prices in mind. Secondly, the Sigma platform has a very high cowl (commonly called firewall) height that was made as a concession for the Cadillac SRX Crossover. This however is not ideal for a low slung sports coupe and would be very expensive to impossible to correct. This realization occurred at about the same point GM discovered Holden. In importing the GTO, GM realized that Holden had expertise and efficiency in designing affordable rear wheel drive cars that they could only wish to have. When they signed a 3-year agreement with Holden to build the GTO, they also had an eye on the future, and an American made GTO. It seems Holden was already developing a successor to the V-chassis that the Monaro, GTO, and Commodore are all built on dubbed VE. The VE chassis (as Holden calls it) is sort of a hybrid Sigma/V-car design with most of the Sigma’s structure mated to V-Car suspension elements. This new design is being engineered to be fully compliant with US laws and will be built in one or two US factories beginning 2005-2006. It is Holden’s manufacturing system which allows for several cars to be built in one factory that is the cornerstone to GM’s plans. Currently they build 20 variants of the V-car in one factory down under. This setup GM hopes in the US will allow for a Buick to build say a $45,000 Lexus fighting sedan on the same line a $20,000 V6 Chevy Camaro. The US version of the VE chassis is currently being called Sigma-Lite or Sigma-Mass among those in the know, however GM has yet to give it an official name. The chassis debuted just this week as the Opel Insignia concept, proving how far it is along in development. The VE will also underpin the next GTO which will be made in the US in 2007. This new VE-based GTO is said to be lower, wider, and more aggressive than the current V-car based version according to those who have seen it. Expect the new GTO to be more identifiable as a GTO, while being a fully modern (non-retro) design. I believe the Insignia concept shows the low slung rounded look that will be the signature of this platform.

Now what does all this mean for the Camaro? Well since it was decided that the GTO would be redesigned and built stateside, Chevy has been in the game developing a coupe for themselves as a counterpart. Common notion was that this car would be a Chevelle, since it has historically been the GTO’s platform sibling. This speculation was recently fired by the fact that Chevy recently trademarked the Chevelle name again. In fact, for a few months there were questions in GM concerning what the new Chevy coupe would be called as some wanted it to be a Monte Carlo, some a Chevelle, and the majority wanted a Camaro. GMI has learned that the Chevelle rumors really never had any muscle behind them, especially after GM was roasted alive by GTO enthusiasts over the 2004 car, Chevrolet has become worried about getting the same reception over a reborn Chevelle. Cementing the name of the new Chevrolet coupe was ironically the Mustang concept at the 2004 NAIAS. Upon first site it gave Bob Lutz a case of the “I wants”, and pretty much cemented that any coupe that comes from Chevrolet will be have to first be a Camaro.

Its also noteworthy that we’ve learned that the new Camaro will not be the same size as the GTO, as the highly flexible chassis allows for different proportions among car models. Think of it as a GTO on a diet with some dimensional excesses removed. Our sources assure us that no one will mistake a Camaro for a GTO both in size or appearance. This new 5th Gen Camaro is currently on a timeline for a 2007 model year introduction, provided that no unexpected obstacles fall in it’s path. GM’s maze of new model concept approvals is staggering, and the new car does not have the final stamp quite yet. However it should be noted that at this point neither does the 2007 GTO, and that this is normal in the approval process for vehicles this far out. This final approval by GM’s Product Planning Board does not occur until the car is within about two years of going into production. In short, if the 2007 GTO becomes reality (which we all know will happen), then a 2007 Camaro almost certainly will to.

GM was quite proud of the fact that the Camaro was the fastest pony car during it’s final years and is willing to grow to great lengths to ensure it picks up where it left off. GM can match the Ford Mustang step for step horsepower wise with it’s superior powertrain unit. GM’s engines are cheaper and make more HP/Dollar than their respective Ford units despite the false generally held notion they are low tech. Power will likely come in three flavors, base V6, medium V8, and high end V8. The base V6 will likely be a high-value 3.5L (200HP) or 3.9L (230HP) engine. Expect GM to match the Mustang in V6 performance, but not exceed it. It is important that GM save costs on the V6 Camaro as it will likely be among the cheapest cars built on the whole Sigma-Lite platform. Though V6 buyers care about performance, cost and value seem to take more precedence in this segment. As much as people would like a 3.6L 255 HP high feature V6, it’s not likely due to its much increased cost. They do however, plan to offer a bolt on version of the supercharger used on the 285HP 3.5L that will show up in the 2005 Pontiac G6 to the general public through dealers. Contrary to some rumors, a 4-cylnder is not in the plans as it does not fit the image Chevrolet wants for the new Camaro. For a mid-level V8 expect either a 320 HP 5.3L or a 340HP detuned version of the Corvette’s 6.0L LS2 base engine. The 5.3L is the less likely of the above mentioned engines to get the nod because we are unaware of any plans to certify it for car use, a road the 6.0L is well down. For all intents the 5.7L is dead as the new Corvette will use a 6.0L engine in it’s place. This mid-model is likely to car the Z28 designation which will upset some Z28 enthusiasts, but follows the line with the Camaro’s recent history The top level V8 likely to again be called SS will also most likely be the 6.0L LS2 directly from the base Corvette. This engine making probably 10-20 HP less than in Corvette trim will make in the area of 390HP. The decision to use the SS designation follows GM recent trend of using the designation of the top performing car for each model. The car will also probably have some kind of affiliation with GM Performance Division. It is well known that Holden is designing it’s new VE cars to use 6 speed automatic transmissions, making them an obvious choice for the SS 5th Gen Camaro. The 6-speed automatic is actually simpler and cheaper to manufacture than a 5 speed design. There are rumors that team Corvette badly wants a paddle-shift setup to come from this design, but is exploring all options. This new transmission will be made at GM’s Willow Run plant that currently makes the 4L80-E and 4T80E transmissions. Four or Five Speed Autos will be used in lesser models. There will also be a 6-speed manual offered for those who wish to shift on their own.

 

Ah yes, the article from GMInsideNews.com. Formula79 runs the site.