Yep, you're right, it was a cheap shot on my behalf, and it demonstrated an incorrect prejudice on my behalf. The Koreans have definitely gotten much better at building cars that aren't several hundred pounds heavier than the competition.

 

Bin Laden wants the US out of the "holy lands" - basically, he's pissed that we didn't clear out of Saudi Arabia after the '91 war. And why did we stick around? Because we got a good scare from Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and didn't want to see the same thing happen to the Saudis, which would have been a major problem for most of us in the industrialized world. Oil and terrorism are linked, and frankly there's no easy solution. Of course, oil has also brought wealth to millions of people in the Middle East, so hating the West for its consumption of oil is a logic filled with some holes.

I know there are many here who are uncomfortable with the political aspects of driving an automobile, but it's not like this situation will get any easier to ignore in upcoming years. Anyone who uses so much as a gallon of gas needs to understand the ripple effect it can have on the rest of the world.

 

A couple of things here --

one about oil ...and another about the GM gas incentive.

Oil -- I will readily admit that the older I get, the less I understand about many things.

OK...

Which nation is the number one supplier of imported oil to the United States?

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Ready?

It's CANADA.

Now -- anyone happen to see what happened in Canada this week?

18 terrorists arrested. If this doesn't scare the hell out of you, nothing will.

Canada, to my knowledge, does not import much, if any oil from the middle east. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (please show proof) If I'm wrong, I gladly admit it. Now -- that said -- ya THINK the war is over oil?

Oil is the red herring here. It's a convenient excuse in my opinion. (notice I said opinion)

The bottom line is they WANT YOU DEAD. Plain and simple. They don't like our way of life. God forbid we give people liberty. God forbid we EDUCATED THEM in our universities!

Dunno..............

I know this: My grandfather went to war as a very young man (WW1) -- and came back gassed from mustard gas and died a very slow painful death...and yet he felt that he was just in making that sacrifice so that my father would have a better life. (THIS is why I get on my high horse when I hear people bash our military)


Now...on to the real subject which I evidently single handedly hijacked, (not my intention)

Business isn't great. We live or die by sales. You do NOT want to have to shut a plant down. Further, we can see that rising gas prices have many people concerned. We (at Chevy) are advertising constantly about our MPG -- as I said -- every Chevrolet passenger car available today in the US has at least one model that gets over 30mpg -- the exception being Corvette....... However, we also know that there are a lot of people "on the edge' of making a decision to buy now -- or wait and see. All we are saying is "if you buy now, we'll guarantee the price of gasoline at $1.99 for the next year." I'd say that's better than some companies just giving gas cards away. It's a rational offer. Think about it. You can advertise MPG til the cows come home, but in the final analysis - you need to give the consumer a 'CALL TO ACTION." -- which we did. And some fool -- yes, FOOL -- in the NY times who knows EVERYTHING about the automobile business claims that GM is the United States' worst enemy?

Am I upset? I CAN'T SEE STRAIGHT I'M SO UPSET AT THIS FOOL. YES -- FOOL!!!

(will someone please come over here and get the soapbox out from under me??)

 

It is just some idiots opinion about GM. No matter how right or wrong he is (and in my opinion he is wrong), it is not worth getting that riled up over. The only people he likely made a real connection with in his biased article are people who already hated GM to begin with, so its not like he broke some new ground at camp ignorance.

 

Thats not true. The Clinton News Network screamed Iraq was going to be the blood for oil war that wasnt worth fighting. We were going to go in and steal Iraq's oil and lower gas prices. Any idea of why they arent saying that and probably wish you forgot it was said? Iraq is now producing only 50% of what it did before the war according to Jim Kramer. Some like CNN's James Carville and Paul Begaula have claimed why are we going after Iraq that might have weapons of Mass Destruction when we know North Korea has weapons of Mass Destruction. The ignorance of that statement by someone who must have some inclination that the only reason North Korea exists today in the first place is it was backed by China. Do we really want to go head to head with the Chinese when our plate is already full? And why are we so friendly with COMMUNIST China anyway? Outsourcing everything to a communist nation wasnt how we bankrupt the USSR...

My thoughts are we deal with Iraq because not only was Sadam a brutal Hitler like dictator, Iraq has the economy based on oil to sustain itself once whe made the regime change. A change that was 10 years over due. During the Gulf war we told the shiete's to rise up against Saddam all the while expecting the power of the US would be along shortly. I dont remember specific details but there was an Iraqi convoy that had managed to get us one time. They called in the Air force to take them out. The airforce anialated them. It was so bad Bush the elder was afraid the media would call it a turkey shoot. He had Gen schwarzkopf meet with the Iraqi generals and put a end to the war. Schwarzkopf claims he didnt have any guidelines. The Iraqi Generals were surprised when schwarzkopf let them continue to use their helicopters. Schwarzkopf's reply was yeah you can use them, just keep them away from us. Iraq used them hunt the shietes that we asked to rise up. We should have gone in then. There were several times in the 90's when Iraq kicked inspectors out, or were going out the back doors as inspectors were comming in. We should have gone in then. Alot of people are saying we have to fix it now that we broke it. It was broke in the early 90's as far as Im concerned...

 

Agree. A voice of reason for once...

 

I was done with this thread, but what you are implying here is a very disgusting cheap shot that I have to respond to. (aka I've been trolled)

Let me spell out my point for those too simple to understand it: Hitler advocated genocide in his book Mein Kampf -- he stated it in black and white using metaphors like pestilance and extermination. If more people had read Mein Kampf in the 1930s they would have realized what a terrible threat Hitler was, and perhaps certain large American corporations wouldn't have financially supported his rise to power.

Likewise, Bin Laden says exactly what it problem with the US is. You can choose to listen to these reasons and evaluate them. Or you can choose to ignore them and invent fantasy reasons that serve your own purposes. I think it's clear from the attitudes expressed here that many posters would rather live in close-minded fantasy land.

 

Are you suggesting that:

A) We take Bin Laden's suggestions under advisement and carry on with what we're doing, or

B) We back down and do what Bin Laden wants us to do (with absolutely no guarantee they'll stop the bloodshed -- in fact, I doubt they ever would...)

If you're suggesting A), ok fine. Yeah he hates what we're doing, but we're doing what we feel is good for us and for the rest of the world.

If you're suggesting B)....uhhh.....I don't really know what to say. There's a reason we don't negotiate with terrorists.

 

Go ahead and troll and put words in my mouth all you'd like Z28Wilson -- I'm done here and ain't biting.

 

I'm just trying to understand what you're saying -- no trolling, no baiting.

My point is, I have listened to some of the stuff Bin Laden has said, and no, I don't agree with it. Shocking. Because I don't care for his message and would rather see the U.S. do what we feel is right for us and for the free world I am "close-minded?"

Do we need to use less oil? Uhhh, yeah...probably.

Please explain what we should do to accomodate for Bin Laden, if that's what you're getting at. Maybe you aren't. I really don't understand what you're trying to say. PM me if you want.

 

Careful gentlemen this is looking a lot like some of the threads in the lounge….

Interesting read though, Scott I remember having this exact convo with you a few months ago.

But now that I spent my last 30 minutes reading this I better get back to work

 

I agree, that is why I am inviting flowmotion to PM me....we've gotten waaaaay off course, and I totally understand why flowmotion would not want to further comment publicly. I really am confused about what he's trying to say, that's all.

 

I'm doing a small fly-by here....BUT, if you truly want an insight into OBL's mentality and his "reasons" for the jihad....read this....oil ain't the half of it, just a small part of his excuses.

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2001/issue4/jv5n4a3.htm

 

Oil.....shmoil.......


I just want to see UBL and all his buddies with a 5.56 mm bullet in their forehead.

 

First, if I wasn't clear before, I support GM, they are NOT the evil here.
Now, I agree,(with above) Bush is one of them.
How many Iraqies have we killed??(a fact not just speculation as 9/11)
More than Saddam I'm sure...How many inocent victoms???
How many did we kill in '91???
Judge justly please.
Is it Ok b/c we call it war?
I refuse to become what we hate, so I don't support the war, I do support getting our people home to their families, where they belong.
Fact, we De-Nationalized Iraqi oil....why???????????(ahem..Halibur..hemm....)
Fact, Sadam was educating even his women and bringing his country out of 3rd world status, things Al Queda(sp?) hated him and Iraqies for.
Fact, he thumbed his nose at OPEC's demands for slowing oil production, b/c he was using that to ease sanctions against him.
He was a very unruly child, not that I think he was a good man, but definitely not as propotionally a monster as some other global killers.
Having no WMD, he felt he had 4th amendment rights, (big mistake), and thumbed his nose at US and NATO.
For that he had to go...plain and simple....and with China stressing oil reserves, we just can't afford to have an unreliable leader with that much oil, when we might need it.

Jiddu just asks you to think deeper before coming to your own conclusions, I've read some of his books, (and getting more) he didn't draw any predjudice or bias lines of any kind, which prevent you from coming to a right judgement, or correct perception. I recommend to anyone to read his book "Awakening of Intelligence", excellent book on mental awarness. Remember the old saying,"..nothing to fear but fear itself..." Its been used to manipulate people for eons...

First, there's NO proof, whatsoever, that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, and as far as OBL, other than his face being flashed on TV between footage of the "attacks", subliminally linking him, there's been NO solid proof there either....there's actually videos out by excellent mathmaticians and physicists that show the buildings were "pulled down" and not allowed to fall slower as gravity would have provided...many floors fell all at once...no stacking effect as some try to show. And building #7, untouched, fell in a like manner.....3 building fell, implosion style withing hours of each other....doesn't anyone find that just a little stange??? A similar skyscraper in France burned for days without imploding..hmmmm.
I'm not justifying anyone, but knowing what our govt has done in the past, I'm not letting the flag blind me either. I'm saying more objectivity and scrutiny is needed before we start hanging people.(or going to war with them)
flame away..as always.(it's easier than researching outside of, say, CNN's propaganda)