Pontiac drops a hint of a future Firebird?
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Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Exactly. It should be fairly identical to the camaro say for a few cosmetic pieces. I see a 5th gen firebird as more feasible than the other upcoming Pontiac coupes. The good majority of engineering is shared with the camaro, so how hard of a task can it be?
And assuming the firebird sells at half of the camaro's proposed 100k...how would it compare to G6, solstice, or GTO sales? The GTO is limited to 18k units, imported, and is expensive; the solstice is a 2 seater which is even less practical; and the G6 will most likely sell in low volumes as well. I doubt any of them would touch 50+k units. 2 of them are all new platforms and have no direct (known atleast) "stablemate/sister car", so they'd require more of their own tooling, line, etc... (i'm just assuming). How are these cars any more profitable than a firebird (which shares most parts with camaro) selling at 50k units a year? How can these cars have a strong business case and not the firebird? I like the GTO, G6, and solstice, but i'd much rather see a 5th gen firebird than either G6 or solstice.
Exactly. It should be fairly identical to the camaro say for a few cosmetic pieces. I see a 5th gen firebird as more feasible than the other upcoming Pontiac coupes. The good majority of engineering is shared with the camaro, so how hard of a task can it be?
And assuming the firebird sells at half of the camaro's proposed 100k...how would it compare to G6, solstice, or GTO sales? The GTO is limited to 18k units, imported, and is expensive; the solstice is a 2 seater which is even less practical; and the G6 will most likely sell in low volumes as well. I doubt any of them would touch 50+k units. 2 of them are all new platforms and have no direct (known atleast) "stablemate/sister car", so they'd require more of their own tooling, line, etc... (i'm just assuming). How are these cars any more profitable than a firebird (which shares most parts with camaro) selling at 50k units a year? How can these cars have a strong business case and not the firebird? I like the GTO, G6, and solstice, but i'd much rather see a 5th gen firebird than either G6 or solstice.
Okay I am confused...You want a Firebird with enough differention to not be a Camaro clone...yet now we wanna spend no money on tooling to do so? Pontiac spent alot of money on the 4th Gen Firebird and they still pretty much were seen as sister cars that were interchagable and needed more differention. I know hardcore Firbird guys won't agree with that statement...but sometimes you need to think outside the bubble and over come the initial "I want a 5th Gen Firebird and it has to be exactly this..."reflex.
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Originally posted by Z284ever
That's not true RE5.0. Pontiac has big plans for the G6. I think that they're projecting well over 100,000 units annually. It's Epsilon architecture is shared with the Malibu, Saturn, SAAB and Opel....and more to come. This will be a very high volume platform to say the least.....with lots of flexibility. If we're strictly talking profitability...an Epsilon based Firebird could potentially be very profitable...the other 300,000 or 400,000 Epsilons would absorb the niche player Firebirds' engineering and tooling costs easily.
That's not true RE5.0. Pontiac has big plans for the G6. I think that they're projecting well over 100,000 units annually. It's Epsilon architecture is shared with the Malibu, Saturn, SAAB and Opel....and more to come. This will be a very high volume platform to say the least.....with lots of flexibility. If we're strictly talking profitability...an Epsilon based Firebird could potentially be very profitable...the other 300,000 or 400,000 Epsilons would absorb the niche player Firebirds' engineering and tooling costs easily.
. Is there a low-cost Fwd N/A G6 or something? If not, how do they plan on moving 100+k Turbocharged AWD G6's? The only G6 I’ve heard of was the concepts. It may share the epsilon platform with the Saabs, opels, malibus and Saturn, but how many of them are AWD? How many have turbo v6's? None i'm assuming or that i currently know of. If i'm wrong, feel free to correct me. Maybe there are future plans I/we don’t know of. For NOW and for the most part, I’m assuming the G6 would require more of its own engineering and that was my original point. The firebird would require very little (limited to just cosmetics) and would share everything else with camaro and whatever platform it'll be based off. Which would be cheaper to produce/engineer?
The G6 aside, how about the solstice and GTO? Do you see them selling over 50-100+k units each? I really think a firebird can hit close to100k sales if Pontiac pushes them hard enough.
Edit: i just noticed that the G6 is a grand am replacement and there will be N/A fwd versions of it with the AWD hi-po version being a small fraction. Like z28wilson mentioned, it won't be internal competition against the firebird since both are different for the most part. The same with the GTO and solstice. They too are different. My original point was that how can these two cars (solstice/GTO) have a strong business case and not the firebird? Especially the limited production, imported, and somewhat expensive GTO.
I don't know if an epilson based firebird would be a good idea. A front drive architect? You're not suggesting a Fwd firebird are you?
Last edited by RiceEating5.0; Oct 2, 2003 at 09:38 AM.
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Originally posted by formula79
Okay I am confused...You want a Firebird with enough differention to not be a Camaro clone...yet now we wanna spend no money on tooling to do so? Pontiac spent alot of money on the 4th Gen Firebird and they still pretty much were seen as sister cars that were interchagable and needed more differention. I know hardcore Firbird guys won't agree with that statement...but sometimes you need to think outside the bubble and over come the initial "I want a 5th Gen Firebird and it has to be exactly this..."reflex.
Okay I am confused...You want a Firebird with enough differention to not be a Camaro clone...yet now we wanna spend no money on tooling to do so? Pontiac spent alot of money on the 4th Gen Firebird and they still pretty much were seen as sister cars that were interchagable and needed more differention. I know hardcore Firbird guys won't agree with that statement...but sometimes you need to think outside the bubble and over come the initial "I want a 5th Gen Firebird and it has to be exactly this..."reflex.
The hardcore firebird guys (what 1st and 2nd gen owners?) are pretty much out of the picture today. Their cars were produced 2 generations and 20 some years ago. If they haven't warmed upto the 3rd and 4th gens, then they wouldn't warm up to a 5th gen anyways. I think most would rather see the firebird line continue (even if it means it remaining a sister/twin car). The firebirds has been a camaro twin/sister for the last 2 gens and 20 some odd years.
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From: Ohio
How about this for a way out there, off the wall idea?
Camaro gets built on Sigma-Lite, Firebird comes in with full-blown Sigma.
It would justify a higher price on the Firebird, which it traditionally has had, and that, in turn, could justify the lower volume expected.
A few problems could be the whole cowl height issue, and the Cadillac/Sigma stranglehold....
Camaro gets built on Sigma-Lite, Firebird comes in with full-blown Sigma.
It would justify a higher price on the Firebird, which it traditionally has had, and that, in turn, could justify the lower volume expected.
A few problems could be the whole cowl height issue, and the Cadillac/Sigma stranglehold....
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From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
I don't know if an epilson based firebird would be a good idea. A front drive architect? You're not suggesting a Fwd firebird are you?
I don't know if an epilson based firebird would be a good idea. A front drive architect? You're not suggesting a Fwd firebird are you?
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Yes, I guess I am.
Sorry guys, in all seven pages here, I haven't heard one good argument for basing a Firebird off of Camaro again....other than, "that's how they've always done it."
I think an Epsilon derived Firebird could be very interesting....and profitable. I think a high horsepower AWD version could be an American 3000GT or Skyline GTR. I think enthusiasts would flock to these cars. I think "Firebird"would be a name that the whole world would be aware of, again.
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From: Ohio
Originally posted by Z284ever
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Yes, I guess I am.
Sorry guys, in all seven pages here, I haven't heard one good argument for basing a Firebird off of Camaro again....other than, "that's how they've always done it."
I think an Epsilon derived Firebird could be very interesting....and profitable. I think a high horsepower AWD version could be an American 3000GT or Skyline GTR. I think enthusiasts would flock to these cars. I think "Firebird"would be a name that the whole world would be aware of, again.
Flame suit :ON
Flame retardant foam: DEPLOYED
Brass ***** : ATTACHED
Yes, I guess I am.
Sorry guys, in all seven pages here, I haven't heard one good argument for basing a Firebird off of Camaro again....other than, "that's how they've always done it."
I think an Epsilon derived Firebird could be very interesting....and profitable. I think a high horsepower AWD version could be an American 3000GT or Skyline GTR. I think enthusiasts would flock to these cars. I think "Firebird"would be a name that the whole world would be aware of, again.
Oh my!
It's thought processes similar to this that probably got the GM80 program as far along as it did back in the 80's....
Read my reply just above yours... it could be a viable alternative. It would not longer be a Camaro clone, but could still be a true Firebird.
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From: Merrillville, IN
Originally posted by Darth Xed
How about this for a way out there, off the wall idea?
Camaro gets built on Sigma-Lite, Firebird comes in with full-blown Sigma.
It would justify a higher price on the Firebird, which it traditionally has had, and that, in turn, could justify the lower volume expected.
A few problems could be the whole cowl height issue, and the Cadillac/Sigma stranglehold....
How about this for a way out there, off the wall idea?
Camaro gets built on Sigma-Lite, Firebird comes in with full-blown Sigma.
It would justify a higher price on the Firebird, which it traditionally has had, and that, in turn, could justify the lower volume expected.
A few problems could be the whole cowl height issue, and the Cadillac/Sigma stranglehold....
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by Darth Xed
Read my reply just above yours... it could be a viable alternative. It would not longer be a Camaro clone, but could still be a true Firebird.
Read my reply just above yours... it could be a viable alternative. It would not longer be a Camaro clone, but could still be a true Firebird.
I can see the Pontiac salesman now...." Look down here....see this control arm...it's alloy, not steel like on the Camaro".
Whatever happened to your AWD drive idea, Darth,....you've got me doing all the legwork on it buddy.
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From: Ohio
Originally posted by Big_Z
Ok I think this sounds like it could be a good idea. However, what will be the major draw of the actual Sigma platform? Does it have inherent handling characteristics that will be better? is it lighter? or is it just fancier/more expensive for no reason? (ex. dohc mod motor vs. pushrod ls1) What will make this more expensive Firebird worth more then a 'low' sigma-lite Camaro?
Ok I think this sounds like it could be a good idea. However, what will be the major draw of the actual Sigma platform? Does it have inherent handling characteristics that will be better? is it lighter? or is it just fancier/more expensive for no reason? (ex. dohc mod motor vs. pushrod ls1) What will make this more expensive Firebird worth more then a 'low' sigma-lite Camaro?
I dunno... just throwing it out there for speculation.
You pose a good question... what would be the benifits of going to a superior architecture?
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From: Ohio
Originally posted by Z284ever
I'm not sure how that would work.
I can see the Pontiac salesman now...." Look down here....see this control arm...it's alloy, not steel like on the Camaro".
I'm not sure how that would work.
I can see the Pontiac salesman now...." Look down here....see this control arm...it's alloy, not steel like on the Camaro".
Whatever happened to your AWD drive idea, Darth,....you've got me doing all the legwork on it buddy.
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From: Chicagoland IL
Doesn't anyone want a Firebird that might be different than a Camaro?
I mean, I get the impression that as long as it's differentiated from Camaro with little more than retractable headlights and an arrowhead emblem then everyone is happy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
How Boring. :yawn:.
I mean, I get the impression that as long as it's differentiated from Camaro with little more than retractable headlights and an arrowhead emblem then everyone is happy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
How Boring. :yawn:.
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From: Ohio
Originally posted by Z284ever
Doesn't anyone want a Firebird that might be different than a Camaro?
I mean, I get the impression that as long as it's differentiated from Camaro with little more than retractable headlights and an arrowhead emblem then everyone is happy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
How Boring. :yawn:.
Doesn't anyone want a Firebird that might be different than a Camaro?
I mean, I get the impression that as long as it's differentiated from Camaro with little more than retractable headlights and an arrowhead emblem then everyone is happy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
How Boring. :yawn:.
Hmmm... I thought that was what I was trying to do (with the Sigma vs Sigma-Lite and AWD vs RWD), as opposed simply slapping an inappropraite name on a car that is already in the pipeline...
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From: Chicagoland IL
Originally posted by Darth Xed
Hmmm... I thought that was what I was trying to do (with the Sigma vs Sigma-Lite and AWD vs RWD), as opposed simply slapping an inappropraite name on a car that is already in the pipeline...
Hmmm... I thought that was what I was trying to do (with the Sigma vs Sigma-Lite and AWD vs RWD), as opposed simply slapping an inappropraite name on a car that is already in the pipeline...
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From: Ohio
Originally posted by Z284ever
Ok....what would power a Firebird?
Ok....what would power a Firebird?
Would it be a big issue if it shared the Camaro engine?
Camaro shares with Corvette... Corvette shares with CTS-V....
If it is a huge issue, perhaps a version of the NorthStar could be applied, though I think they had to use the LS-x block in CTS-V for packaging reasons... but it could still be a V8 powerplant... but use a different V8, if available.
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From: The Golden State
OK, how about a Firebird GTO?
Firebird would be the base name of the Pontiac coupe. I comes in base, GT, and GTO trim. It shares structure and body with a new "3 box" fast back Camaro (quite likely not far from the truth between Camaro & GTO).
Figured since we're reaching here, I'd throw this out. It's probally not realistic the next GTO will be a single model only line.
Firebird would be the base name of the Pontiac coupe. I comes in base, GT, and GTO trim. It shares structure and body with a new "3 box" fast back Camaro (quite likely not far from the truth between Camaro & GTO).
Figured since we're reaching here, I'd throw this out. It's probally not realistic the next GTO will be a single model only line.
