I dont know, i see alot of people in there Late 30's - Mid 40's always staring at them in parking lots, personally i dont care for it.

The other night i was with some buddys, we went to the bar for happy hour. Come out and there is a Red GTO outside next to my Z', none of them are apart of any crowd when it comes to cars. All 3 stood there and stared at it for about 3 minutes. Saying "Wow this thing is bad-***, what a killer car. Way better then that mustang." and other things to that tune.

Mind you again NONE of these guys have a care either way what brand it is, they where commenting on its Looks souly. And although ive not seen a 05' GTO run, Im sure its 1/4's aint to bad. So it would appear atleast locally the only issue with it is the pricetag, in comparison to a stripper Z in its last year of production.

Yes i know the GTO comes fully loaded, but at my age. CD stereo and power seats dont mean squat, its all about the thrill of petal mashing.

so the enthusiasts are there, but atleast in my experiance its just a little pricey.

 

The 2004 didn't offer much in the way of styling, to me, for a $30K + price tag....BUT!...a RED '05 model with Platnum accents IS another story!
If I were positioned to afford one RIGHT NOW, I'd definitely buy one!!! (But I really, really, really want to save for, and wait for a 5th Gen, if I don't like it, (butfrom all I can hear, I WILL,) then I'll turn back to a GTO!

 

Once again, that is your opinion on the style. I obviously like it, you don't, we could argue this all week and not gain an inch. The car isn't retro, and the idea to use the Holden as the basis meant it wouldn't be retro.

Once again, your ignorance is showing. The GTO wasn't replaced by the Firebird. The GTO was a based on the mid sized sedan, and wasn't based at the same buyer as the firebird. What you're saying in effect, is that the Camaro too, replaced the Chevelle? That is just stupid. The GTO was phased out, like all muscle cars, because there was a shift in the automotive market. Insurance, and oil prices were on the rise, and the US wasn't willing or able to bear owning a "Gas Guzzling" big block anymore. So, yes sells were dropping off, but they were based heavily on factors that were outside of GM's control. The Pony car didn't replace the Muscle car, as they were two different markets, aimed at two different buyers.

Absouletly, had there been demand for 100,000, I sure they would have told Holden to get in gear, and starting loading the ships. But, the car is selling where it was projected to sell, and that, quite frankly, is all GM needed to happen to keep the cars coming over on a ship

Once again, the sells are what they are. It wasn't meant to be a high volume line. It is selling where it was projected to sell. They can't do much more than that. If anything was a sales disaster, it was the F-Body. Let's talk about an embarassment: No marketing, cheap build, cheap materials, big price tag, and basically the same car for 21 years. That is what makes me sick about my Z, when I really get to thinking about it. The people that wanted them couldn't afford them, and the people that could afford them, didn't want them. You should want the GTO to suceed IMHO, if the GTO is a success, that gives GM confidence to try dipping into new markets, or trying new things for the performance buyer.

As for needing a Firebird, I'd love to see anything from GM that "is a" Camaro/Firebird type car (I don't care what it is called, as long as the formula for success is there). But, it has been stated before, the Firebird doesn't fit into Pontiac's plans, and there hasn't been talk that I have heard of it making a return. All talk has been solely on the Camaro.

 

I really like all the moronic comments about how poorly the GTO is selling. GTO practically outsells LS1 firebird outright. Considering it only comes one way (fully loaded), and is 'so boring', that's a pretty nice feat. Subtract out cloth seat cars and i bet GTO might even be outselling the fireturd.

btw, arguing over the GTO's styling is retarded. Some of you might not like it, but you have to understand that to a lot of us, the LS1 bird with it's 12 scoops on the front end is the epitome of tacky late-90s poncho garbage, and thus is 'just as bad' in the other direction. Considering how POORLY the late firebird sold, i don;t think we're alone. If the 98+ firebird was really such a great looking car, how come no one bought it?

 

Ughh, I think my point has been taken way out of context, and I have tried to explain it over and over. I am not arguing that a reskinned Camaro should be a Firebird, or GTO, or whatever. My only point was to help clarify z284evers' post that had some people confused by making it apparent that he thinks the Camaro will be far too heavy when it is released, on its own platform.

 

Because it was far too extreme. Honestly, the only places I ever hear people really complaining about how the bird looked is on internet forums. Just about everyone I have ever talked to said it was a good looking car, and most people I have talked to think the car is absolutely badass in WS.6 trim. And this is coming from more than just a 20-something crowd, people of just about any age of have talked to have said this. Most people just think the car was too extreme though.

I know how limited the GTO's build numbers were, due to it being imported and all, but the fact of the matter is that in reality, the Firebird sold more than the GTO, and I am betting pulled in more profit. We will never know how well the GTO could have sold if it was uncorked on its production number limit, so we can only discuss sales figures in reality. What kind of numbers did the Firebird sell in at the beginning of the 4th gen's run? Or better yet, how much would the GTO actually sell if it were on sale for 9 years with not much of a facelift? My guess would be not as well.

Sorry if it seems like I am attacking the GTO, because that is not my intention. I really like the ones with the "tacky" factory installed body kit; I think it looks really good, and gets some aggressive looks it needs with it. I just don't like how much grief the 4th gen's get on this website, like they were the biggest mistake of all time or something. It sure would have helped if that got more of a significant restyling, and got advertised decently towards the end.

 

Although I do agree with you about Pontiac's styling being too conservative nowadays (they could make their excitement cars look more exciting while leaving all the body cladding off), but I think the rest of your statement is either own opinion or conjecture. How exactly was the 2005 GTO a flop? If the styling on it was a disaster, they wouldn't have moved any units at all.

 

The GTO was far from a disaster, and even with its modest numbers. People seem to be agreeing with the sound of the checks they are writing for them.

 

I'm with you on the first point. The design had potential, but it was just too extreme, too many holes, too caricature. I'm not saying some people don't, but there are a lot of people who don't too. It's poarizing for sure.

As for sales, if you don't count V6 sales, which the GTO of course can't supplement itself with, the GTO sold pretty close with the TA and Formula combined in the LS1 years, which also never cracked 20k units IIRC.

Now imagine if you also took out all the cloth seat cars, so you were comparing similarly equipped cars, after all, the GTO only comes one way. I bet it'd be real interesting then.

 

And how can you say someone who wanted a Formula with cloths seats, but had to get leather, because it was the only thing available, wouldn't have just sucked it up and paid alittle bit more for leather? This is my point, we could speculate on this all day. I bet it would be really interesting to see if how well the GTO sold if GM turned their back on it and ran its production to 9 years with little to no advertising, and seldom a significant body restyling.

 

Well, I really disagree with much of what you say there Guy. Are you implying that Camaro will be a light, nimble, compact package? Have you really come across people that are working on the current car, because they are few and far between.

As far as any work on a future RWD replacement for Monte Carlo...any possibility of that would be in '11 or '12 or '13 or more likely not gonna happen. There is no such car currently in the pipeline or even being planned.




There is only ONE RWD coupe in the pipeline....let me repeat, just one.



EDIT: Just want to add that I have never detected any bitterness from NA regarding Holden's involvement in the previous Zeta. The question was why try to force a manufacturing bill of process on NA - which didn't fit it's process - when homegrown ones fit perfectly.

 

I really can't tell what you are getting at with your post.

Here is my point:

Firebirds (including Base, Formula, Trans Am, Firehawk and their appearance packages) > Camaro (Base, Z28, SS and their appearance packages)

Especially in the 4th gen. Especially in the 2nd Gen. 1st and 3rd Gens are closer.

 

ok, question, if the firebird were still around today? would the GTO's sales be unchanged? and would the GTO dip into firebird customers?

the GTO claims to be in a different catagory and a different buyers market, but without the f-body, the GTO is the only car for us, and it is a lowsy replacement. if the GTO sold 100+k a year we would all be happy for it, but lets face it, its too ugly and doesnt expand its options with other models(v6)

 

To answer your question, it depends on what you'd do with the GTO. The GTO exists because the 'Bird died. That's my understanding; I haven't read the thread, so I may have missed out on something. If you want the GTO to stay an intermediate, I'd make the Firebird something sized like the Torana concept. Make the top engine an F/I six cylinder and the bottom an EcoTec. Make AWD an option. There you go. Two different cars, two different markets.

Now, for part two. Yes, the GTO is the only GM car left in the RWD sporty market (CTS excluded). Ford and Dodge offer the Mustang and Charger, respectively. If you want to include the entire RWD sporty market, there's used Cateras, Thunderbirds (90s), 9C1 Caprices, Mustangs, Firebirds, and Camaros, not to mention all the foreign choices. The choices are hardly limited.

I personally don't consider the Goat a replacement for the F-Bodies, simply because there's nothing but the one engine option. And the fact there's no T-Top option . If it was available with a six cylinder, cloth seats, and a cheaper radio option, then I'd be singing a different tune (and driving a different car ). But, it's only available in top trim. As far as looks, I think the new GTO is just as cool as the old GTOs, and I'd rank it right up there in the looks with the Vettes. I don't get why people hate the look.

But that's just me.

 

Why do these threads always turn into GTO bashing????

As far as I'm concerned, and as much as I like the GTO. The Solstice should become Pontiacs flagship. Pontiac has an opportunity with the Solstice to, dare I say it, become the Ford Cobra of the 21st century. Imagine the top of the line Solstice with a 5.3 303HP V8. Hmmmm.. You say never? Dont' bet on it.


Solstice
Solstice GT
Solstice GTO.