I don't think so either...at least not in GT coupe form.

Just for comparison sake...... a 2003 Cobra convertible...replete with cast iron block, supercharger, heavy reverse engineered MN12 based IRS...comes in at 3780. The coupe is at 3665.

 

Werm,
That's what I'm saying. Who's going to buy a Corvette at 80-90K? Probably very few people.
The Corvette works well right where it is.
And I agree with you on your take of GM's answers to Ford's vehicles so far.
If GM can do it, then why haven't they already?


Pacer,
I don't think GM would move too many 40K Camaros. Why not just buy a Vette for 45-50K. I know I wouldn't spend 40K on a Camaro. Just take a look at the survey that was just run. While it was posed as a 50K Camaro, look at the spread. I would bet that the number of people willing to buy would only increase marginally.

 

The other three cars should not even be mentioned in the same sentance as Corvette.

End of dicussion.

 

Inflation will drive the cost of a full-book Camaro SS to $40,000 by 2007-2008. Corvette will increase from the current ~45,000 to somewhere over $52,000.

$12,000 is a considerable spread between a low-end Corvette (which will easily out-brake and out-handle a high-end Camaro due to weight alone) and a full-book Camaro SS.

Second, the survey itself is not realistic. Cobras DO NOT compete with Corvette. As a matter of fact, NOTHING really competes with Corvette. The Japanese tried, and Corvette buried the 300ZX, Supra and RX-7 with ease.

Corvette has now set it's sights on Viper and GT. They'll get buried too.

 

Corvette may be faster than Cobra. Corvette may beat Cobra. Corvette may absolutely end up embarassing Cobra.

That is absolutely irrelevant. The fact is that SVT intends to compete with Corvette with the next gen Cobra. Corvette may be gunning for Viper...but Cobra will be gunning for Corvette.

 

Welp, that's what the buzz on the street is. We shall see. Ford has had a history of not being able to control vehicle weight (Thunderbird SuperTub, the new F-150, the Cobra).


First, the 911 and the Ferrari simply don't matter. Even though they ARE exotics, Corvette Z06's have embarrassed them badly. Twice the price, less performance. Next victim please.

GT will be no different. Were I Ford, I would be VERY concerned as to what GM is going to do to me with a Super-Vette. Half the price, more performance, and Ford has ZERO credibility in the ultra-performance market. Sure, GT40 was a nifty car... thirty years ago.


Nope. Dead-on the mark. GM's done it every time they have wanted to, and can continue to do so. That have chosen NOT TO in some cases is not an indication that they can't. At will, and simply due to economy of scale, GM can lay down the law. Examples?

4th Gen Camaro vs. Mustang
Pontiac 3.8 SC GTP vs. SHO
CTSv vs. Lincoln LS8
Any Northstar car vs. anything Lincoln has with the 4.6.
GMT-800 vs. even the new F-150 (mostly because the new F-150 is a pig)

Soon to come...
5th gen Camaro vs. Mustang
Super-Vette vs. GT


Now, the SS Truck vs. the Lightning is certainly in Ford's favor currently... BUT should the SS Truck show up to the party with a motor based of the next generation Z06 motor...

Well... it's all over.

 

And Ford will fail. Cobras do not compete with Corvettes. No Corvette driver worth his/her salt would be seen dead in one, and the car is going to end up being a +3600 lbs. pig taking on a ~3100 lbs. true sports car.

There is simply no comparison.

 

Is it just Ford that GM can lay down the law to, or is it everyone?

 

Pacer,
Do a new poll.

See what people WOULD pay for a new Camaro in 2007.

I'm asking cuz I don't know.
I know I wouldn't pay 40K.

I remember a bunch of people here saying that the new Camaro needs to be like 23K- 28K (something like that).
That's a far cry from 40K

Wasn't the 35th SS priced from like 30K-36K? How did it sell. I'm sure they sold every one, but how long did it take?

 

Pace is off on Ford again. Haha. I like it how when GM can't match a certain Ford in equipement/Performance for your dollar (Svt focus, 03 Cobra, L), its because they aren't trying or don't want to. But when it comes to Ford not matching certain GM's, it's because they can't or don't have the oats to compete or hang. I just found that funny.

Pace, clearly, you know one thing only....and that's Hp/performance. Nothing wrong with that, but other things factor into a cars price. Clearly, the GT and vette aren't made of the same materials nor are their constructions and parts similar. One could argue that they aren't even in the same CLASS. There's a reason why certain cars cost more.

Btw: Supra TT, Rx7, etc.... where excellent cars. The c4 vette didn't kill them (if i recall, their performance was similar to or in certain areas better than Lt-1 c4), their price did. They were simply overpriced, or were percieved as overpriced. Funny cause now, these same people are spending 30k on used ones.

 

Anyone remember the Cobra R? Camaro doesn't need to have an answer for every Mustang under the sun.

Just make the mainstream (base, z28, ss) that much better.

 

No doubt the C6 will be impressive.

But, having driven an '03 Cobra, I can tell you first hand.... that although it feels old....it is also explosively fast. Add another 100 or so horsepower on Mustang's new D2C chassis, and it'll be interesting to see how these two, (Vette and Cobra) compare.

The '06 Cobra will certainly be no slouch.

 

We could re-do a poll, but a few interesting things happened at the end of the 4th generation:

1) Nobody wanted a V6 car.

2) Nobody wanted a Z28.

3) The only cars that moved quickly at all were the SS cars.

Maybe Red could chime in here. He's got a better idea than anyone relative to what the Camaro market looked like and will look like. From our conversations, Red is fully cognizant of the fact that Camaro is a performance car aimed squarely at a particular market, and to compete effectively in that market it has to blow away Mustangs at every level. Cobras included.

Cobras aren't even on the Corvette Group's radar. They honestly couldn't care less about what Coletti thinks, and most likely get a pretty good laugh about the idea of a Mustang running with a Corvette.

Finally, I think it has been shown repeatedly that this group is not representative of the market.


In the end, I'm not representative of the market anymore either, even where I myself am concerned.

I have been, and probably will forever be, a Corvette guy. Camaro is my stepping-stone car. I wanted the fastest machine I could get at the time in my price range in 2001, and I bought it.

Next, I buy a Corvette or nothing. Thankfully, my economic situation has improved enough to allow the purchase of a Corvette in 2006 or 2007. Once that became the case, there was no reason for me to be emotionally invested in Camaros. I love them, but kind of like I loved my first house.

It was a good house, and a good value. It did good things for me. I really liked having it.

But I wouldn't trade my current house for it.

My Camaro SS is a great car. Brutally fast, relatively inexpensive, comfy, well-built, has T-tops and air conditioning and a 6-speed. Image-wise, it matches exactly with what I wanted it to be at the time. It says things about me as much as I say things about it.

In the end, it's still not a Corvette. And that isn't a criticism.

 

I see.

An interloper.

I'll remember that, next time a Z/28 vs SS debate comes along.

 

You are correct. That's because the only people who even thought about Camaro were the hard core, 45 year old plus enthusiasts & collectors who wanted a Camaro before GM pulled the plug. In both cases, this is a group that goes for the top model. After 10 years looking at the same body in a car class that depends on regular restylings, regular customers & customers like me that already had a recent Z28 had no reason to get a new one.


I wrote a thread some time ago about how I feel enthusiasts hurt Camaro & would doom it's future because so many fell into the "Engine in a Box" mentality. Seemed the only thing they felt Camaro is nothing more than a b*lls out performance car. The last Camaro (at least after they put in the 3800 V6) out did Mustangs at every level.

However, what everyone seems to have amneisia on is that Ford of the 1990s did not allow Mustang to compete with Camaro performance-wise. Team Mustang & SVT was frustrated at every turn when they tried to convince Ford management to let them market quicker Stangs. The other thing that many here also conviently forget is that GM was starving the F-body from 1998 on. It is a fluke (as some of you know) that the LS1 got a major hp boost in 2000. The supercharged Cobra missed the SS Camaro by only 4 months, and the Cobra R started off as a regular Cobra, before Ford changed it into nothing more than a bragging rights car (without any real production numbers of reasonable price).

Quote:

Cobras aren't even on the Corvette Group's radar. They honestly couldn't care less about what Coletti thinks, and most likely get a pretty good laugh about the idea of a Mustang running with a Corvette.

As you stated, Cobras aren't on Corvette's radar... Corvette is on SVT's radar!

You described the difference between Corvette & Camaro in a personal, yet perfect way. Both are totally different cars. Corvette is something one moves up to. It's completely silly for anyone to suggest that Camaro's performance exceeds Corvette's. Over at the blue oval, since most all it's customers will NEVER be able to afford a GT, the car they will ultimately move to (performance wise) is the Cobra.

Last I read, Cobra buyers tend to be older than Corvette buyers, which in turn is older than Camaro buyers (including the Camaro with the oldest group of buyers, the SS).

Quote:

My Camaro SS is a great car. Brutally fast, relatively inexpensive, comfy, well-built, has T-tops and air conditioning and a 6-speed. Image-wise, it matches exactly with what I wanted it to be at the time. It says things about me as much as I say things about it.

In the end, it's still not a Corvette. And that isn't a criticism.

Again, perfectly well put. Some of the more red-blooded Camaro enthusiasts need to understand this.



This section is for everyone else:

Ford really doesn't have a Corvette. Don't count the GT, because at 100,000+ it's even more expensive than the Viper. And just like the Viper, beyond being a backdrop, it's not going to do anything to the bottom line except break even.

Corvette has to make profits. There is a point where Corvette buyers WILL shun a Corvette. We saw that bigtime with the ZR-1 Corvette that Chevrolet couldn't give away after the collectors got theirs the 1st year of production. Throwing Corvette prices into Viper territory (let alone GT) is a disaster waiting to happen IMO.

GM isn't going to get into every performance corner everyone else is into. I think we have all heard this from GM management. The Silverado SS isn't going to compete with the Lightning (though a quicker version is in the works), the supercharged Ion & Colbalt SS isn't going to be as quick as the SRT-4 Neon. The only "take no prisoners" vehicles as stated by GM is the GTO, the Corvette, and pretty much a version of every Cadillac.

However, GM is commited to top drawer handling. Current Corvettes are quicker on the track than more powerful Vipers (and the 1st Cobra vs GTO test should be interesting ). Ion Redlines are likely to blow SRT-4s & the SVT Focus away on the track (which will be turbocharged by this time next year, and therefore much quicker than today's version), Camaros will have IRS at the same time Mustang GTs & Mach1s will have a live axle. Ford will be pushing ancient Crown Vics & Town Cars while GM will have Sigma lite Chevys, Pontiacs, and world class Cadillacs.

There's more to life than the quarter mile. Regardless as to how quick the Cobra is, at least when the next Camaro comes out, we won't have to pay Cobra prices to get IRS, and we still should get 400hp. That's way more than enough to flatten Mustang GTs and Mach1s which will be in the same price range.

As someone who is actually going to dish out real money for a new car, and not just blowing smoke as a back bencher with an ego problem, I'll say if Chevy puts out a 400 horse Camaro with IRS & hot handling in a body I like and quality I demand for no more than $30,000 in today's dollars, I won't give a flying $%@& about whether it beats the more expensive $35,000 Mustang Cobra, I'll still buy it in a heartbeat. I simply won't pay $40,000 (or even $35,000) for a Camaro, just like I won't pay it for a Mustang either!