Over a 5 month waiting list.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins...uto-229229.htm

I guess the people who "study" the market at GM and decide what the market will buy & what they won't might consider perhaps studying something else, perhaps?

 

Hmm, a 5-month list, eh? That alone is far more than the number of HHRs GM plans to sell in a year.

Here's a really interesting quote:

Wow.

 

Congratulations to Ford!

Looks like they hit the mark, and did it in an outstanding fashion.

 

Yes, but remember, nobody wants that solid rear axle, LOL.

 

Good news For RWD

 

I'm continually amazed at its popularity. From what I've driven (V6s only, unfortunately), it is a very underwhelming car in most respects. Loud, coarse, underpowered drivetrain; backseat smaller than my Camaro's; tiny trunk; off-putting IP. It must be the styling and history of the nameplate that's drawing in the buyers.

When people line up to buy cars like that despite its many drawbacks, it's going to be difficult to use logic and numbers to convince them otherwise. That's going to make for a very uphill battle for the Camaro, just like the 1990s when the f-bodies were clearly superior cars to the Mustang but still sold less.

Anyhow, makes you wonder what kind of competitor GM could have come up with using all the money it dumped into various misadventures in the late 1990s, like Aztek, Saab, Oldsmobile, etc. Hindsight is 20-20 I suppose.

 

The car has something that none of the competitors have...
It's called SPIRIT.

And you are right - it defies logic. That's why it sold well when - as you say, "...the f-bodies were clearly superior cars to the Mustang...". That's why it sells well without 500hp... that's why it sells well without HUD and navigation systems... etc, etc, etc.
This car appeals to people who are affectionate about cars.
It does nothing for people wanting a transportation appliance.
It also does nothing for those who are infactuated with numbers only.
It is for people who tend to have a relationship with their car, and feel the spirit or soul it has.
When you get out of a car like this, you feel like you just had a nice conversation with a friend, ya know?

This, to me, is what the Japanese and Asians don't know how to design nto a car.
Thank Goodness.

 

I think the Japanese can design something with soul when they feel like it. The S2000, Supra, MR2, Miata, Acura TL, TSX, RSX, Celica, 350Z, G35, M45, 300ZX, RX7, RX8, etc. Its just that they can get away with selling on quality alone, and feel that they don't need to take any risk with something sporty or daring style.

 

Of that list, only the 300/350 Z-cars come close to having a soul to them IMO.

The G35?!?! It's a nice car, but it is FAR from stirring my soul.

Miata is garnishing a following after a decade, and a bunch of AutoX fans.

S2000...

Again, I don't think they know how to do it.
BMW, Porsche, and the some European marques have got it, and they charge for it too.
Australia has had it for a long time - similar to the USA (in fact I think they have it better than we do right now).
But I have seen nothing from Asia I couldn't live without.

 

I can tell you from 1st hand experience, that unless you are an exacting and demanding car person the new Mustang with the V6 is really a good car all round, and nearly amazing at the price.

It's V6 may be course, but it's unexpectedly quick.
It has a live rear axle, but no one short of IRS enthusiasts cares, and it handles just about anything you throw at it.
It has hard plastic plastic instead of padding over the instrament panel, but at least it looks great and doesn't feel cheap & brittle like the last Stang used on it's dash face.
The chrome vents may look tacky to a couple people here, but they look great in the interior.

I had one for a week, and that included a road trip from Monterey to Vegas. Short of the speed governor, that annoying window raise & drop when you open and close the car door, I was all but sold on the car.



GM is NOT going to beat this car in sales by having a more sophisticated suspension or more power than the Mustang does, and IMO anyone who thinks that just doesn't understand what makes the car appealing.

The ONLY way Camaro is going to give Mustang a run for it's money is by:

1. Being stylish- this doesn't mean another impractical doorstop, but something both 50-something and 20-somethings will appriciate.

2. Better interior materials- The Mustang looks great inside. The organic and mechanical designs of the CTS, Grand Prix, or the new Malibu simply won't cut it. The interior has to be as much as a styling statement as the exterior.

3. Make assembly quality do or die- The Mustang seems to be nearly flawless in assembly. The next Camaro needs to at the very least, equal this.

4. Finally, focus on PRICE!- Mustang is a steal price-wise. For what you get, how the car's styled, and how it performs is what's driving a good part of it's sales. If a choice boiled down to IRS or cutting another $1,000 off the price by using a live axle, go with the live axle! Save the IRS for a more expensive version. It's vital the Camaro that competes with the base and GT Mustangs be on target in price.

If anyone doubts this, and feels that any Camaro that doesn't have massive horsepower and IRS at any cost will fail, go back and read the article at the top of the page again.

We aren't 99% of the car market.

 

There's a whole bunch of people that could care less if domestic cars as a whole ceased to exist too!

Also, I'm trying to think of the equivalent list of late model domestic cars with soul...

Mustang
Ford Gt
Viper
Corvette
Camaro/Firebird (gone for 3 years now)
GTO (debatable huh? heh)

B-body Impala SS (almost 10 years ago!)
300C

CTSv
XLR

Cobalt SS - all I can really thikn of the sport compact
Solstice - but not quite out yet.

 

Good news.

GM is definitly taking note.

This quote below is directly from Chevy marketing director Jim Campbell regarding the mustang sucess: "I wake up every day knowing that I am spotting Ford 150,000 to 200,000 units."

The new mustang probably did a lot more for the 5th gens future than most of us will probably ever realize. As long as atleast one of them sells well and proves there is a market for a sports coupe, camaro and mustang will always be around.

 

I recently drove one and the only bad thing I could say about it was the high side window sill.

Other than that, splendid car. Can't wait to see the Cobra.

 

I suspect that an objective evaluation of warranty information may show that the Mustang is far from flawless. It should be interesting to see what the quality surveys say. But, customers will put up with a lot if the car is sufficiently interesting and if the dealer can fix the problem promptly and on the first try.

The rest of your points I agree with 100%. Passion is what's selling this car, and I wish that wasn't so surprising to so many people in the industry. Face it - a manufacturer can either try to make the absolute best soulless appliance out there (and if it's only 98% as good as the competition, forget about it), or they can build something that's so interesting that all the "little things" just get forgotten by excited customers. I'm not advocating sloppiness or anything, but rather suggesting that there's more to this business than being the best at screwing together a bunch of parts.

 

I've had my 05 GT for almost 5 months. Every morning when I get into it and fire it up, it puts a smile on my face. It truly appeals to people who appreciate cars and aren't obsessed with numbers or stats. I know it isn't the best car out there, that it has several flaws, and that I could be the technically superior 04 GTO for the same price; but I don't care. I like my Mustang because it's what I think of when I think American car. It's RWD, V8, sporty, and has a classic look about it. The interior could be better, but no one buys a pony car for comfort, if you ask me.

guionM is absolutely right about how the Camaro would have to be in order to top the Mustang. The way GM is acting lately though, I have serious doubts that they'll meet all those requirements. That's not to say the next Camaro won't be awesome, but it might not compete well with the Mustang, especially once the GT500 hits the market.

Kris