Mustang and F-body.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 163
From: Dallas, TX
Re: Mustang and F-body.
As you may remember, hard core performance enthusiasts alone were not enough to keep Camaro alive.
People seem to forget that Ford has much more in store for the Mustang lineup. There will be models that put up more impressive numbers; models intended for the "hard core performance enthusiasts" mentioned above. These models dont have the burden of holding up the whole line-up financially, and can focus more on its target audience. Perfect plan, and it will work. To have the model succeed, you must appeal to the larger buying public FIRST, and then give your enthusiasts something special. Does "something special" mean large sums of cash? No, as I posted in another thread, the Mach 1, which fits into this catagory, had an MSRP that was actually LESS than some V6 loaded verts.
This strategy also gives Ford a good indication of how much of their buying public needs alot of horsepower. If you look at the numbers, its smaller than you think.
This Mustang GT will be the slowest V8 offered in the lineup, not intended to perform the tasks so many have bashed it for coming up short on. Chevy would do well to empoy the same tactic; a dual focus marketing plan that takes care of everyone.
Dont likes Mustangs numbers? Wait.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,472
From: South Bend, Indiana
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by newby
I agree with everything else you said, but I don't think this statistic really proves your point. It says who BOUGHT the car (which I guess technically is what was stated), but it doesn't and can't take into account who the car was bought for, or who drives it. I know the majority of 16y.o. girls don't buy their own cars, and for insurance reasons usually one of their parents names is on the title. So I bet the 55% number is not accurate for who actually drives the car or who the car was bought for. I wouldn't be suprised if the 65% for the V8s and the 90% for the cobras are more accurate percentages when it comes to drivers though.
BTW...does Rentacar count as a male or female?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 163
From: Dallas, TX
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Im a Camaro guy as much as most others here, but I am sick of hearing all the Mustang bashing.
I guess it just cant do anything as well as the Camaro...
Sales? uh no
Variations? Uh no
Mod freindly? Uh no
Performance....I dont recall ANY F-body outperforming the latest Cobra (and there were F-bodies that cost more)
Maybe they should say "Screw it, we are going to make it fast, with the GT motor; handle like rails, with IRS, stiff springs, ect...This will be the only model. We dont need this car to be succesful anyway."
I mean, come on, say you dont like the styling, maybe the seat doesnt fit you well...but when you say that the Mustang sucks based on ideals that have and will make it successful, and make its buyers very happy, you just dont have a valid argument.
Im not a Mustang guy...but I do think it is being done right. Its fans arent going through a "hiatus." They are celebrating with a new car who's future looks extremely bright....both for the bean counters, and its enthusiasts.
I guess it just cant do anything as well as the Camaro...
Sales? uh no
Variations? Uh no
Mod freindly? Uh no
Performance....I dont recall ANY F-body outperforming the latest Cobra (and there were F-bodies that cost more)
Maybe they should say "Screw it, we are going to make it fast, with the GT motor; handle like rails, with IRS, stiff springs, ect...This will be the only model. We dont need this car to be succesful anyway."
I mean, come on, say you dont like the styling, maybe the seat doesnt fit you well...but when you say that the Mustang sucks based on ideals that have and will make it successful, and make its buyers very happy, you just dont have a valid argument.
Im not a Mustang guy...but I do think it is being done right. Its fans arent going through a "hiatus." They are celebrating with a new car who's future looks extremely bright....both for the bean counters, and its enthusiasts.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,276
From: Chattanoga & Franklin
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by L.A. Z
Im a Camaro guy as much as most others here, but I am sick of hearing all the Mustang bashing.
I guess it just cant do anything as well as the Camaro...
Sales? uh no
Variations? Uh no
Mod freindly? Uh no
Performance....I dont recall ANY F-body outperforming the latest Cobra (and there were F-bodies that cost more)
Maybe they should say "Screw it, we are going to make it fast, with the GT motor; handle like rails, with IRS, stiff springs, ect...This will be the only model. We dont need this car to be succesful anyway."
I mean, come on, say you dont like the styling, maybe the seat doesnt fit you well...but when you say that the Mustang sucks based on ideals that have and will make it successful, and make its buyers very happy, you just dont have a valid argument.
Im not a Mustang guy...but I do think it is being done right. Its fans arent going through a "hiatus." They are celebrating with a new car who's future looks extremely bright....both for the bean counters, and its enthusiasts.
I guess it just cant do anything as well as the Camaro...
Sales? uh no
Variations? Uh no
Mod freindly? Uh no
Performance....I dont recall ANY F-body outperforming the latest Cobra (and there were F-bodies that cost more)
Maybe they should say "Screw it, we are going to make it fast, with the GT motor; handle like rails, with IRS, stiff springs, ect...This will be the only model. We dont need this car to be succesful anyway."
I mean, come on, say you dont like the styling, maybe the seat doesnt fit you well...but when you say that the Mustang sucks based on ideals that have and will make it successful, and make its buyers very happy, you just dont have a valid argument.
Im not a Mustang guy...but I do think it is being done right. Its fans arent going through a "hiatus." They are celebrating with a new car who's future looks extremely bright....both for the bean counters, and its enthusiasts.
Varations are a good thing, and I bet Ford has a couple of Ace's up their sleeves with some hot variants(think Cobra)
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 509
From: Modesto, CA
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by guionM
1. With Mustang's percentage of buyers being men hovering around 55% for all Mustangs and about 65% for all V8s (Cobras run something like 90%), that still means more men bought Mustangs than ALL the people who bought F-bodies by a number that is measure in the 10 thousands place. This blows apart & sinks your "girls and feminine guys are Mustng's only buyers" position.
2. My own experience is that driver ability can throw a stoplight or freeway grand prix if 2 cars are within half a second of each other in the quarter, or 0-60. I have personally both beaten an LS1 Camaro in my LT1 Camaro and been beaten by a Bullit Mustang. Point is that something that close in performance to your car is nothing to sneeze at, and most certainly isn't embarrasing.
3. Mustang buyers are into aftermarket and add ons, not off the showroom performance. There is at least 4 Magazines, 3 famous aftermarket tuners, and no fewer than 10 aftermarket companies that specialize in Mustangs. The new Mustang just won a SEMA award as the most aftermarket friendly car for 2005. This is something Camaro (ESPECIALLY the 4th gen) quite bluntly isn't.
I've owned both Mustangs and Camaros, and by far Mustangs are easier to modify, and personalize. Younger people also are into personalizing and customizing their cars. Sure, most all of them are ricers, but Mustang has been accepted by this group because like those FWD ricers, and performance cars of the past, there is pleny of options available to make your ride as quick or as much of a head turner as you want for relatively modest money.
If the next Camaro doesn't adopt this idea, it's likely to fall into the same fate as the 4th gen. As you may remember, hard core performance enthusiasts alone were not enough to keep Camaro alive.
2. My own experience is that driver ability can throw a stoplight or freeway grand prix if 2 cars are within half a second of each other in the quarter, or 0-60. I have personally both beaten an LS1 Camaro in my LT1 Camaro and been beaten by a Bullit Mustang. Point is that something that close in performance to your car is nothing to sneeze at, and most certainly isn't embarrasing.
3. Mustang buyers are into aftermarket and add ons, not off the showroom performance. There is at least 4 Magazines, 3 famous aftermarket tuners, and no fewer than 10 aftermarket companies that specialize in Mustangs. The new Mustang just won a SEMA award as the most aftermarket friendly car for 2005. This is something Camaro (ESPECIALLY the 4th gen) quite bluntly isn't.
I've owned both Mustangs and Camaros, and by far Mustangs are easier to modify, and personalize. Younger people also are into personalizing and customizing their cars. Sure, most all of them are ricers, but Mustang has been accepted by this group because like those FWD ricers, and performance cars of the past, there is pleny of options available to make your ride as quick or as much of a head turner as you want for relatively modest money.
If the next Camaro doesn't adopt this idea, it's likely to fall into the same fate as the 4th gen. As you may remember, hard core performance enthusiasts alone were not enough to keep Camaro alive.
Ok, I apologize. My comments were not appropriate and I’m sorry. My comments were based on my negative opinions towards a car, not because it isn't a quality car and a good value, more because of a "rivalry" with a car that I have had a love affair with from the time I was 11. From my viewpoint the camaro has always been a better car, however, that has rarely resulted in better sales and fan following. I know my opinion has nothing to do with the general publics decision on buying a car and I realize I should not try to force it upon others. I also should not talk down on others who do not share my opinion. I should not have ben so inconsiderate and closed minded.
I will continue to think that the mustang's performance, goofy looks, and con artist-like support from Ford Motor Company is a crock. I will try to refrain from name calling and degrading efforts when I speak of it.
But just to get a little jab in, my girlfriend does own a 2004 mustang that was bought for her by, and in the name of her dad.
V-6 with the GT hood scoop and spoiler because it was cute.(I'm pretty new around here and I've never had a post scrutinized by guionM. Its almost like getting my a** chewed by a gunny that I have a lot of respect for. I will now leave here with my head down in shame.
lol)
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,030
From: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
Re: Mustang and F-body.
I say on average the '05 Mustang GT has as much performance as the average LT1 F-Body. Any LS1 F-Body should be somewhat quicker.
The looks of the new Mustang is starting to grow on me, but I think it would have looked alot better if the car had a nose on it that wasn't so close to the 60s Mustangs. Something a little more modern would have helped a lot IMO. I could live with the exterior, but I could not live with the interior and dash layout. I have to agree with Car & Driver on there road test in the Dec. issue. The interior and dash layout is
I'll take the "dated" Camaro dash layout anyday over the Mustang dash.
The looks of the new Mustang is starting to grow on me, but I think it would have looked alot better if the car had a nose on it that wasn't so close to the 60s Mustangs. Something a little more modern would have helped a lot IMO. I could live with the exterior, but I could not live with the interior and dash layout. I have to agree with Car & Driver on there road test in the Dec. issue. The interior and dash layout is
I'll take the "dated" Camaro dash layout anyday over the Mustang dash.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 249
From: casselberry ,FL
Re: Mustang and F-body.
[QUOTE=30thZ286speed]I say on average the '05 Mustang GT has as much performance as the average LT1 F-Body. Any LS1 F-Body should be somewhat quicker.
wrong.Our '94 LT-1 is not as fast my '05 GT.
wrong.Our '94 LT-1 is not as fast my '05 GT.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by MarineReconZ28
Oh, I didn't know there was a point to the thread. I just thought you were throwing something out there to discuss. I'll read it again. Ok...Your opinion was that the new mustang is a "great car". I stated my reasons why I don't think it is such a "great car". I don't think I missed the point by that much.
Not trying to start anything. Just defending my mustang bashing post on a camaro board.
Not trying to start anything. Just defending my mustang bashing post on a camaro board.
So you think the Mustang is not so great because it's slower than the final F-bodies, and you don't care so much about the other characteristics.
Anyway, what I intended to say is that the Mustang is nearly as fast as the '98-'00 F-bodies (and it's faster than the '93-'97 models, which were
low/mid 14 cars in most C&D/MT/R&T tests).
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by newby
I agree with everything else you said, but I don't think this statistic really proves your point. It says who BOUGHT the car (which I guess technically is what was stated), but it doesn't and can't take into account who the car was bought for, or who drives it. I know the majority of 16y.o. girls don't buy their own cars, and for insurance reasons usually one of their parents names is on the title. So I bet the 55% number is not accurate for who actually drives the car or who the car was bought for...
Registered owners of Ford Mustangs are about 55% Men. Corresponds with the car's buyers. No if ands or buts about it. Anything else is just hearsay, urban legend, and wishful thinking. That includes the elusive masses of humanity who buy brand new Mustangs for their little 16 year old girls (someone else brought that myth up over a year or so ago, and I looked into it...false). Sorry.
At 55% and a sales year of say, 160,000 cars, that means that 88,000 men brought Mustangs. Now.........exactly how many men brought Camaros per year? Being genorous and saying Camaro sold a steady 40,000 per year, and about 65% were men (actual percentage), that means that about 26,000 cars. Not exactly cornering the Spike TV market, is it?
If you look at Mitsubishi Eclipse, it's only 40-45% range. Toyota Celicas were also around there as well. All Camaro (including V6) is only about 10% better than the Mustang (around 65% overall), so it's not like Camaro was so much a testosterone crazed, macho only automobile over Mustangs.
My sister has a Camaro V6 stick, an ex girlfriend still has her 1997 Camaro SS, and and a young woman at my job in Long Beach drove a '01 Z28.
Bottom line is that if you want a reasonably priced performance car, with women now making up a larger portion of the new car buying public than men (55 to 45% for those intrested), and their influence in the car buying process pretty much mandatory with the 70-80% of new car buyers who are married, you are going to have to include them.
Otherwise, GM will have to charge Corvette-like prices just to make the car break even.
Last edited by guionM; Nov 14, 2004 at 03:18 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 373
From: Anywhere but here
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by guionM
Gotta go with facts here. Registered owners of Ford Mustangs are about 55% Men. Corresponds with the car's buyers. No if ands or buts about it. Anything else is just hearsay, urban legend, and wishful thinking. That includes the elusive masses of humanity who buy brand new Mustangs for their little 16 year old girls (someone else brought that myth up over a year or so ago, and I looked into it...false). Sorry.
Not that it really matters either way, car buyers are car buyers, and as it played out in the last gen wars, more buyers wanted a mustang than a camaro.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by newby
How can you prove it false though? I wasn't stating it as fact, I was just pointing out, again, that those numbers don't prove who DRIVES the car (just like percentages for any other car). Again, if after looking into it you found actual proof that it's not right, then fine. But I don't think it's possible to do that, so it's still a POSSIBILITY.
Men have higher insurence than females. Everyone is under the illusion that Camaros expensive to insure. That makes the V6 Mustang the only game in town for young men who don't want a FWD ricer, don't have the money to insure a GT, and want a new car. THAT'S why Mustang has a 55% male buyer and registration rate.
Just to show you how far Mustang's appeal goes how about a Mustang V6 enthusiasts website (don't seem to be more women there than are here
): http://www.3.8mustang.com/
Not that it really matters either way, car buyers are car buyers, and as it played out in the last gen wars, more buyers wanted a mustang than a camaro.
That's why I feel (and I may be the minority here) that Camaro should focus on burying Mustang in the sales arena. Sure, performance is great, but all the performance in the world doesn't mean squat if your car is dead because it can't sell enough to make it worthwhile.
Camaro's sales figures for 2003 & 2004 don't lie.
Last edited by guionM; Nov 14, 2004 at 03:40 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,402
From: Toronto, ON Canada
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by newby
How can you prove it false though? I wasn't stating it as fact, I was just pointing out, again, that those numbers don't prove who DRIVES the car (just like percentages for any other car). Again, if after looking into it you found actual proof that it's not right, then fine. But I don't think it's possible to do that, so it's still a POSSIBILITY.
Not that it really matters either way, car buyers are car buyers, and as it played out in the last gen wars, more buyers wanted a mustang than a camaro.
Not that it really matters either way, car buyers are car buyers, and as it played out in the last gen wars, more buyers wanted a mustang than a camaro.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,472
From: South Bend, Indiana
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by guionM
Sorry, not even a remote POSSIBILITY. There isn't enough possibility of 16 year old girls on the planet to offset 88,000 men Mustang buyers to an optimistic 26,000 for Camaro (actually closer to 20,000 or less Camaro's last few years).
Men have higher insurence than females. Everyone is under the illusion that Camaros expensive to insure. That makes the V6 Mustang the only game in town for young men who don't want a FWD ricer, don't have the money to insure a GT, and want a new car. THAT'S why Mustang has a 55% male buyer and registration rate.
Just to show you how far Mustang's appeal goes how about a Mustang V6 enthusiasts website (don't seem to be more women there than are here): http://www.3.8mustang.com/
100% correct.
That's why I feel (and I may be the minority here) that Camaro should focus on burying Mustang in the sales arena. Sure, performance is great, but all the performance in the world doesn't mean squat if your car is dead because it can't sell enough to make it worthwhile.
Camaro's sales figures for 2003 & 2004 don't lie.
Men have higher insurence than females. Everyone is under the illusion that Camaros expensive to insure. That makes the V6 Mustang the only game in town for young men who don't want a FWD ricer, don't have the money to insure a GT, and want a new car. THAT'S why Mustang has a 55% male buyer and registration rate.
Just to show you how far Mustang's appeal goes how about a Mustang V6 enthusiasts website (don't seem to be more women there than are here
): http://www.3.8mustang.com/100% correct.
That's why I feel (and I may be the minority here) that Camaro should focus on burying Mustang in the sales arena. Sure, performance is great, but all the performance in the world doesn't mean squat if your car is dead because it can't sell enough to make it worthwhile.
Camaro's sales figures for 2003 & 2004 don't lie.
I have always thought of the Mustang as a chick car, it isn't an illusion, it isn't a stereotype, it is my opinion of Mustangs that many share with me. Try sitting inside of an F-body and I DARE you for one second to think its a chick car. No freak'n way...Now go drive a Mustang. Definately more feminin.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Just take a look of Mustang drivers when you see them.
There were 5 mustangs in my lot in HS, 4 of them wer V6's and all driven by girls. But, I bet that there dad got them a car. My ex's best friend's dad got her a Mustang GT because she wanted one.
I know what I see, and its a lot more females in the driver seat of Mustangs then there males.
There were 5 mustangs in my lot in HS, 4 of them wer V6's and all driven by girls. But, I bet that there dad got them a car. My ex's best friend's dad got her a Mustang GT because she wanted one.
I know what I see, and its a lot more females in the driver seat of Mustangs then there males.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 373
From: Anywhere but here
Re: Mustang and F-body.
Originally Posted by muckz
The entire point is to draw some logical conclusions from the data that is available to us. How can you guess what percentage of Mustang buyers who were men actually bought these for their girlfriends/wives/daughters? Similarly, how can you also NOT apply the same formula to fbody sales? If 20% of men who bought Mustangs bought them for women, why not assume that also 20% of fbodies were bought by men for their women?
As for the V6 stang site, it has been proven that more men use the internet regularly than women, so the same would probably apply for a car enthuisiast site.
Again, it's still a POSSIBILITY. And again, it doesn't really matter, I'm just playing the devil's advocate
