Just to supply more information it is quite common now to see LS1 F-body and Vette guys using 6.0L iron truck blocks for their big-power motors. Likewise the 6.0L and 5.3L truck heads are very popular with the LS1 crowd now too. That's not to mention the popularity of LS6 conversions out there.

So the interchange craze is alive and well with the Gen III engines



And to the question of old stuff interchangeability, the Chev. big block stuff was all interchangeable as well. I think the original Ford SB stuff takes a hit when you start talking about the differences between Windsor and Cleveland motors and the lack of some interchangeability there. SBC's are universally interchangeable regardless of where they were made. Ford stuff is far from junk in this arena for sure, but I think most knowledgeable engine/parts people will concede, regardless of brand loyalty, that the Chevy small block has the edge in terms of interchangability, parts availability and pricing due to the volume of parts sold and available stuff in junk yards, etc.

 

I guess I'm just not hearing the conversations about the swapping of LSx equipment then. My bad. I'll start listening more and asking more questions!

The Cleveland engine is IMO the best non-exotic engine Ford ever designed. It was a clean-sheet approach that was a break-away from the old existing designs. The goal was to develop a small block that had big block characteristics - namely torque. The engine was phenominal, so much so that it killed the 351-windsor from the Mustang lineup in less than a year. 351-C's started to appear in the Mustang in '70 and ran thru '74 in the Cougars, Torinos, and other mid-sized products. It was the fastest powerplant for Ford - bar none. It even found itself in exotic 200mph cars like the Pantera. FWIW, the 351C made for performance cars didn't really die, it was detuned to pure torque and was called the 351M (M for modified). It lived in trucks through the early '80s and also was stroked by Ford to give even more torque as a 400M. Parts will interchange between the 351C and the 351M/400M, but who wants to lame-down a C with M stuff? And most people won't piece-meal an existing C engine - parts are too hard to find.

Now, the 351 Cleveland heads were used to make the '70 BOSS 302 that won Trans Am that year from the Camaro. Those heads will bolt onto a 302, but waterjacket holes and such do not line up - they were reworked. That's the only Windsor/Cleveland swap I'm aware of ever happening.
NOTHING IN A 351-C will swap with ANYTHING ON A WINDSOR MOTOR (302,351W,289,etc.) Maybe that's why the engine has never gotten the real credit it deserves. It's the kind of hidden treasure that only real Ford gurus find out and capitalize on. There are actually some aftermarket engine shops doing 351C engines though because they have so much to offer. A 351C stroked to 393 can go 500hp in mild form, 650 with radical cam and intake, and over 800hp when blown or turbo'd. DSS engines and Coast High Performance are offering packages to suit your needs for $5k to $10k.

Again, I think the GM's and Ford's engine programs have more in common than most would think. After all, the are constantlly studying and one-upping each other, so you know something revolutionary is going to spead from one to the other in due time.

 

You talk about the 70' Boss 302 winning Trans am that year over the Camaro, but if i am not mistaken, that is the year Chevy pulled out the factory backed sponsorship, so that victory is not that big a deal since the main player lost funding...............

 

That may be so - I don't know. I do know that Camaro won it in '69, and the cars were basically unchanged in competition for '70. I have read in magazines about the races and the Camaro and Mustang dominated for the most part.

Ford had a problem with the '69 BOSS 302 making torque at lower RPMs and was getting snookered by the Camaro's 302 trough turns and accelerating - once at speed the Ford was above the Chevy, but that's not often on a road course. They were turning 7500-8000 rpm in Ford's 302 to make power, and the bottom ends were exploding. The Cleveland head enabled the torque to come in lower, while still flowing freely at 6000 rpm and higher - that was their salvation. Bud Moore ran the 302's after the '70 MY season.

Taking nothing from Chevy's Camaro of the day at all. Just stating that the Cleveland head made the difference once developed and used - that's all.
Both cars really were rocking back then though, weren't they!

 

I thought Camaro won the first three years of the series' existence, all three titles won by Mark Donohue in the Sonoco Camaro.

 

Donohue drove the Sunoco Camaro to Trans-Am championships in '68 and '69.

 

Don't worry, I was just busting your chops a little, no ill intent. I don't know enough about Mustangs back then to comment much.

 

Lil more info regaurding the cleveland heads.You have the 2 barrel and 4 barrel heads.4V heads were used on the BOSS 302 and thats why they didnt make bottom end torque.IF they had uses the 2V heads they would have had a ton more torque down low but they wouldnt be able to make the power they did with the 4V at higher RPM.4V C heads were used in N.A._.C.A.R. so 351C engines could run at 8500 to 9000 RPM. Im no where near a N.A._.C.A.R. car fan and what engines they use nowadays.{heads etc.}

Proud I own a 351C,Ive done a lil bit of research myself..
I personally am holding on to my 351C (swapped it out for a 460)
because I am not "too" fond of the 302/351W engines.Its kinda like why a Chevy guy loves a 350 but hates a 305 in most cases.Both have tons of potential...But I will build it up one day when the time is right.BTW did you know that u can get a 427c.i crank for the 351c blocks?

 

Clevelands are cool motors, but I don’t know if they are the best Ford Design. I have Help build 5 4V 351C's for my buddies Boss. They seem to not have too much reliability in race applications. With the head design demanding high rpms and the oiling system not always up to par design wise they seem to want to blow up. My buddy just completed a 302 and w are hoping to reach roughly the same power #s with a little more streetablity. My vote for the coolest Ford motor is the 302. My stang will be getting a 331 next summer. BTW ProudPony you have any first Gen Stang body parts you are looking to get rid of? Body work is going slow right now.

 

Ahh, the old Trans Am days.

Those were truly the glory days. The fierce competition. The lavish factory backing. The innovation. The cheating.....er...I mean creativity.

What excitement! I get goosebumps just thinking about it!

An interesting note. When Chevy pulled it's factory backing for the 1970 series, the Camaro went from back to back championships to placing 5th overall at the hands of privateers. If GM wasn't supporting Camaro.....Ford decided to pull the factory plug on Mustang. A year later, AMC took the gold with the Javelin.


I would just love to see a modern day Trans Am series that emmulates that period. Camaro, Mustang, G35, RX8, Charger, M3...all cars born on an actual factory production line.....duking it out for manufacturer's glory.

 

Maurauder is dead. Ford stopped making them.

 

They haven't stopped making them yet, and now it seems Maurader may live on for a couple more years.

 

Oh my goodness... I was there (where you are) in 1988!
I'm getting old!

You and guess who are right about the 4V heads - the suck for normal street use - ESPECIALLY with an automatic. They need @4000 rpm to really start showing their potential, and in a hydraulic cam or auto tranny configuration you will suffer from valve float or shift points before you can obtain the best power.

Like guess who said, USE THE 2V HEADS for street work. Holley and Edelbrock both make aluminum intakes that adapt the 2V head to a 4bbl carb. I have run the Performer II and Torker II with great success. You'll lose top-end on the motor, but I have no need to turn 8000 rpm when I'm getting 500hp/600tq both below 6000 rpm.

The optimum head, that delivers the low end torque of the 2V head with the flow of the 4Vs is the Aussie Head. They are expensive here in the US, but man do they perform. The are a "massaged" 2V casting that Oz developed after we killed the Great-C up here - stooopid.

As for the oiling problem, if you use a sludge-building oil (a natural oil with parafins in it as friction modifiers) you will have oiling problems at the #4 cylinder eventually. If you are rebuilding an old block and don't get that part of the oil galley clean of the sludge, you have screwed yourself from the starting line. The oil flow suffers from an eddy (like water behind an exposed rock in a creek) in the oil passage back at the rear of the block and allows deposits to build. Use synthetics and you'll never have a problem. To further improve oiling, there is a hole at the front by the water pump near #1 that is already tapped and plugged from the factory on all Cleveland blocks. Screw in a nipple and run a hard line back to a similar plug just above the main bearing at #4. This is a Ford racers trick that will put more oil at #4 than it will ever need and eliminates the build-up/clogging problems pretty well.

4V Clevelands are capable of simply unreal numbers if you want to build a radical engine. Like guess who was saying, that WAS the exact engine used by Ford guys in NASCAR for years. They are still using the same basic 351C block but it is technically a Windsor casting now and SVO has added webbing and cross sopports, and the induction and heads are all specialized now - nothing "Ford" about them really. Again, the DeTomaso Pantera was a 200 mph car that used 351C power and was a real street terror in the early seventies. They are no slouches today either!

As for parts, ummm yeah, I got some stuff.
Wanna swap some old body stuff for your buddies 351C engines?
We already hijacked this thread bad enough, PM me or drop me an email what you are needing.

 

I tried telling people that when it was WRONGLY put out by I think MotorTrend.The car is far from dead and far from maxing its HP!Man I cant wait til the next engine is in..............................

 

But....will it matter? As much as everyone says they miss the old Impy SS and that the only reason nobody buys a Marauder is because it doesn't pack enough punch, how many people today would honestly buy a car that crude anyway? Just throwing more horsepower at a certain car we all know and love didn't help its situation either.