Is it only for newer, stricter regulations or is the car just getting a little heavier from options and size? I've always thought the 05 Mustangs were heavy and that a potential GT500 will be slowed down by weight. I was looking forward to GM avoiding those obstacles by shaving off weight.. but if it's regulations then I guess everyone plays by those rules and so any Mustang would have to be heavier.. which sucks for all enthusiasts really...

 

Hey, love ya too, but here goes....

1) I've already stated my opinion on this. Pontiac can call it whatever they want.

2) Holden wants a new Monaro. Pontiac wants a new GTO. What they want (especially for Pontiac), and what they get, may differ. As far as successful, OK, they are finally moving the limited amount they are importing. Bob Lutz is trying to put a happy face on this in public, with his "Sold Out" comments. Privately, many at GM are not happy.

3) Depends on what you consider big. Right now, it may be too big for me.

4) No, not for right now. Who knows how it will all shake out though. There could be more than one outcome. Unless something happens soon though, they might be indistinguishable - sizewise.

 

I'm not sure why. Crash standards certainly. The rollover regulations are an easy engineering fix - but add weight, for one.

Personally, I think someone needs to make an issue of this dimension creep for it to be addressed. If nobody thinks it's an issue, nobody will address it. Look at C6, it's smaller and lighter than C5.

Someone NEEDS to have the WILL

EDIT: talking Camaro here, not GTO.

 

Exactly. Why label it a GTO if it's a 4 door they're considering making?

Holden don't call the Monaro a Commodore 2-door, do they? GM marketing, take note!

 

In Australian Muscle car folklore, the Monaro was always a big car though not as big as the American muscle cars of the time. The Torana was a snug car... it started off as a humble 6-cyl and ended up with a racing pedigree... the last generation ended up with a bigger heartbeat in the way of a 5.0L V8.

Cutting a long story short, if it's a small car requirement that [some within] GM feel they need to fill, maybe the Torana could fit that bill nicely? Turbo HFV6 or LS2... sounds awesome and sounds like a good rival for the BMW M3.

 

Actually, rear wheel drive.

Charger is an embarrassment only if you order an agressive looking car like that with the V6.

 

I see the Torana as analagous to our Camaro/Nova.

I wonder how accepting Australian enthusiasts would be to Monaro sized Torana? Because, that's what a GTO/Monaro sized Camaro would be to me.

 

So basically the current state of the union, so to speak, is as follows:

We have to wait until 2009 or 2010 to get an overgrown, overweight, Retro Pig! Wow! Just add a solid axle in there and my nightmare will be complete.

What ever happened to the “sport bike” analogy?
I thought the death of Zeta was supposed to improve the chances of getting an appropriate Camaro?

What the *ell is going on?

 

Damn, you're harder on the Camaro development than me.

I think it is precisely because you're going to have to wait till ~2010, that the car is actually going to come out just fine. They have no chassis, simple as that. They'll end up with a clean sheet design, but they won't admit it/don't know it yet. They think they're going to re-do Sigma aka CTS as a Camaro aka Sigma-lite. They'll find out along the way, that Sigma-lite turns out so different from Sigma, the name is meaningless. But it'll be good.

Ford did the exact same thing. Someone had a "brilliant" idea. Let's turn the DEW Lincoln LS into a DEW-lite Mustang. But DEW-lite ended up sooo different from the DEW chassis, nobody even bothers to refer to it that way anymore.

GM has a working target here to help keep them from screwing up along the way. It's called the stang. And as long as they don't get the stang and the Charger swapped, the Camaro will come out fine.

 

Thank you Ms. Cleo ...........


-Mike

 

If it's closer to 'Monaro' in size, I would think it would stick with the Monaro nameplate. The Torana nameplate won't be resurrected unless Holden introduce a smaller car to slot beneath Commodore... I would think. If Holden were to introduce a smaller/lighter vehicle than the current Monaro with an LS2 (or TT36) it would keep us performance fans happy. That's the essence - smaller/lighter performance - otherwise drop the idea of Torana altogether.

 

Sports bike analogy is already in play, so don't let yourself swing on every new rumor that deviates from what has been the course for the past month. Now I think know why Redplanet tears his hair out by some of the things he reads here.

Reality Check Time.

There might be a couple of people at GM who may be saying some "doom & gloom" things for whatever reason, and passing them on to be spread around. However, I'll be willing to bet a Pepsi those are the same people who said a Holden would never be imported here because it's too much work to re-engineer it, or the same people who spread the rumor that Holden's Zeta was somehow "sub-standard", or that now the 5th gen will be fat as a pig.

I will guarantee you there will be at least another one of these "Panic Rumors" to get you all worked up before the auto show season, and you'll hear a stream of these "Panic Rumors" all the way up till GM has their car in the showrooms.

Maybe GM has a counter-intellegence gang, maybe there are disgruntled old-style GM people saying things, or maybe these people simply don't know what they are talking about, or maybe it's the old "whisper-around-the-table" experiment from high school (you whisper something in someone's ear, and by the time it gets around the table back to you, it's something exagerated or totally different).

Also, as F-bod says, some people aren't in product planning meetings, and as Branden mentioned once, some people don't know as much as they are pretending to know.

Before anyone else goes into vapor-lock, go through & read Fbodfather's postings, and follow what GMHPD Chief Mark Reuss' has said about the subject. It corresponds to word I'm getting from other sources, so don't think for a moment Fbod's painting an artificially bright picture or Marke Reuss doesn't know what he's saying (he wouldn't be involved or know much unless the vehicle is undergoing joint development with GMHPD). Safe to say, if nothing else, these bits from key people show things are too far along for sudden drastic changes.

Holden is NOT working on a Camaro & Zeta is NOT Camaro. But GM "would like" a few large coupes, and will likely have them. IMHO, by decades end. But there's other vehicles that are likely to be out sooner.... and who knows, we may see them in an auto show somewhere.

We'll know if I'm right soon enough.

 

If I remember right, the last time we had a thread like this we thought GTO was dead in ~2007, and the Camaro's shared platform it was going to be built on was gone. Now history repeats itself. Only this time the GTO stays heavy/gets heavier and the Camaro is a porker as well. Folks, I think it's time to realize that the Camaro's shoes have grown bigger than any car can fill in it's absence (I realize this has been said before), and some are going to talk doom and gloom even after the car gets released. It will be too retro, not be a Cobra killer, cost too much, be too late, be too much or not enough of everything.

Even if we get a detuned LS7 Camaro some here will still hate it because it's not a twin screw FI motor. If we get a bargain Z-28 that blows everything in it's price segment away, it will be too little too late, have a *gasp* live axle, or have a too plasticky interior. It's the same reason people are so quick to point out that the GTO doesn't sell and bash the car, till you tell them it's a limited run vehicle and NOT an F-Body replacement. People are bitter towards GM for killing the F-cars and WANT to see GM fail, despite what they may say.

What I am trying to say is this: Some people's minds are made up that no matter what GM rolls out in 20XX...it's not gonna be good enough. And they like it that way.

 

Fact of the matter is that GM already knew a 4-door car like this would be a success because they had it about 10 years ago and killed it! It was the Impala SS with the LT1. This is the same make up for the Charger! I say when they do the IMPY the right way with RWD they best make it right and install a HEMI competing engine (LS2)and market as such! How about some of those Crossed Flags emblems (modernized) and some fender badges that say LS2 or 400HP or what ever! give the man what he wants!!! People still love that Impala SS! I'd say name plate for name plate that it would compete nicely!

 

Good points....and hopefully the Camaro's saving grace.

My perceptions are that tidy dimensions right now, are not even percieved by GM as an issue to potential Camaro buyers. In fact, GM may be so transfixed by the current Mustang...that if Camaro comes out alittle bigger and alittle heavier....it will be deemed "close enough". "Close enough" for me would be more acceptable if it's alittle smaller and alittle lighter.

This is what I think.....

For those who strongly prefer a smaller, sportier, lighter car...than say the current GTO....now would be the time to voice your concerns.
Because:
1) I believe this issue is not even recognized as an issue by GM.

2)It may not yet be too late affect an outcome.