Alot of people see it that way. They're trying to redefine the Pontiac brand image....same as Caddy.

I don't think the Bird deserves the image, but like it or not it's out there....Either way they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

 

Understood.

 

I totally agree with you. Even though the Firebird is not my favorite car, it still makes my top 5 list.


Do you think maybe GM wants to see how the 5th gen Camaro does before it throws money at a Firebird? Or do you think Pontiac is heading in a direction where the Firebird doesn’t fit?

 

well I know it was said in a sarcastic tone but he did say that and I was merely pointing out that this Firebird statement may mean something OR may mean nothing.

I know Lutz is the beat source of leaks and you are correct he has not made one incorrect statement so far that I can prove.

your on the money on the Conspiracy Theorist bit

 

i can totally see this. lutz is trying very hard to make GM more "german-like" with its products and performance. he's trying to boost GM's image as a "world class" car builder, not just a domestic one. i mean, GM is use GERMAN platforms for all these new cars, so it figures. THAT's why the Judge isn't a good idea on the new GTO. Luts wants you to try a new exciting car that is quick AND refined AND modern in every way. no new car will truely be a GTO, but this one is as good as any to slap those 3 letters onto. he actually said this himself in plain English, you guys are just choosing to ignore it. btw, the GTO and Judge aren't nessesarily the same "thing". the GTO moniker was first seen on a Ferrari and has a certain "marquee" value to it, while the Judge is a crass/crude slang term that just stuck. imagine GM actually naming the GTO as the "goat". is that german-like? is that sophisticated? does it have "marquee" value? or is it just slang? ...

the Firebird isn't coming back, so you guys can just make your peace with that right now. the Camaro might not be coming back as a "Camaro" either because of its own negative connotations (mullets, trailer parks, missing teath, rednecks). except that Chevy is the low rent devision and it looks like it will stay this way for time to come, so the Camaro name is somewhat safe...

 

From what I've seen, people with this connotation in mind typically hate Camaros anyway and they are generally the ones trumpeting the myth. Camaro enthusiasts and admirers know better and these are the ones likely to buy the 5gen.

 

so you're arguing elitism? how will this help GM sell more cars? it might make you feel better about yourself tho...

i mean, ok, all 30k of these enthusiasts will go out and buy a new Camaro, and then what? Lutz is looking to get NEW buyers for GM...

 

The image might be there, but if the new car is kickass, the image behind it won't matter as much...

Do people not buy Accords because ghetto boys put fart pipes and indy car wings on them and think they're trash? I don't think so...

I for one KNOW what the GTO is, to comment on a statement made above that even hardcore GTO guys don't know what it is...and I think its brilliant. Its an honest, pure, performance car that makes no excuses. It can haul 4 people and a little luggage in comfort. The price is right on for what you get. Its a performance coupe meant to add a performance halo to a performance marque...

Whats not to get?

And it doesn't have the baggage of a Firebird nameplate. Face it...most people see 4th gen T/As as "batmobiles" for a reason. They're a little gaudy...lets be frank here. I love them, but they're a little cartoonish IMO, with the big azz wing and nose nostrils...especially WS6 LS1 cars...man that hood is gaudy

What the general public didn't like so much about the 4th gen Firebird is gone...the cramped rear seat, the overdone (to some people's eyes...and I can see their point) styling, the over-macho image, and the air of unsophistication.

Face it guys...the GTO makes more sense for Pontiac at this point, and I applaud the outcome. A real, honest performance car for a good price and a good comfort level

And if the 5th gen is a homerun, I HOPE a more demure, true 2+2 SPORTS CAR can come back...as a Firebird

 

Do you mean 2005CY for Solstice? I heard 2006MY SOP from pretty reliable sources.

 

Then the terrorists have already won.

 

I agree. If he believes Grand Am is not classy enough for the new BMW-ized Pontiac, then the nameplate Firebird certainly isn't going to fit the bill. Though I will add, Lutz is here to promote the GTO, not leave would-be buyers waiting for when the Firebird comes back. That's not going to benefit GTO sales. Just another angle.

The speculation on the "Judge" usage is probably right (they are not going to get the rights, so down-play how appropriate it is--I'll admit this makes sense too). They had better come up with something better than GTO GXP, GTO Autocross, GTO Performance Plus... or "M" for that matter.

 

well i for one have to say that if the firebird is not coming back then i hope the camaro doesnt come back either. its all or none here not one or the other. so if i want a nice cheap performance car its the camaro or nothing from GM? what if i want to stay true to Pontiac but dont have the finances to afford a GTO? what if i dont like the GTO?

there has to be more to this than what we see here. GM isnt going to exclude potential buyers just because of a cars image...o wait nevermind.

i mean lets face it the f car twins have gone through history together. and yes the camaro was almost killed in the 70s and i bet i would have been saying the same thing then too. if we cant have one i dont want either. GM, WAKE UP. not all of your Pontiac buyers want a BMW wannabe. hell if i wanted an upscale sports car with a rather large price tag then im gonna go to BMW. not Pontiac.

 

I felt like this was coming from what we've been hearing and from things that the insiders have been saying. I waited to say anything so I could see how people were gonna react to this.

IMO, it's OK because the Camaro is the more important/popular car and will do just fine, if not better, without there being a Firebird. (but that would not be the case if it was the other way around) I think it's lousy for people that have always been for the Firebirds but they have always just been slightly different Camaros, sometimes having advantages and sometimes having disadvantages also. The way B.L. sees it is that Pontiac will be refined high performance while Chevrolet will be the aggressive performance marketed to younger people and in his view the Firebird has no place in Pontiac, it's now completely a Chevrolet thing like it was in 66 at first and fits there much better for what he wants. 1 thing that gets me though is how he said that he wouldn't use that model name on the GTO just because BMW wouldn't, I really hope that is some kind of cover up because it's plain stupidity. What does he want to do, use generic model names like they do too?? We don't like generic anything. American cars have always had more personality, attitude, coolness, and aggressivness than cars from anyplace else. The only other cars not from here that do are like Lamborghini's and Ferrari's.

 

....Looks like you missed some of my point. I was speaking of "camaro enthusiasts AND ADMIRERS". Admirers are receptive to the car, its performance value and packaging. It should be obvious, anyone who looks scornfully on such things, and spouts derogatory characterizations, is NOT the target market for such a car to begin with. In contrast, someone who admires the car might become a new buyer.

 

Ya know, the Firebird may not be back as long as Billy Bob is in charge...but he won't be in charge forever.....