Dave1W41 posted this article in the Lounge, thought I'd pass it on here since there was a topic on the Firebird a while back.

GTO Jury Deliberating A New Judge
Chicago Tribune
November 13, 2003
Jim Mateja.



Is there a Judge in the house?

Probably not at Pontiac.

Judge was the name given to the highest-performance, Ram Air induction option package on 1969-1971 models of the Pontiac GTO muscle car.

John Z. DeLorean, Pontiac chief engineer at the time, borrowed the name from the oft repeated "Here come da judge" phrase on the then-popular TV show "Laugh In."

The name lasted only part way into the '71 model year before it was dropped after 374 were built with 455-cubic-inch (roughly 6.5-liter today) V-8 engines, making it one of the rarest and most desirable GTOs.

Thirty years after it disappeared, the GTO returns for the '04 model year as a rear-wheel-drive, V-8 powered coupe.

But Bob Lutz, vice chairman of product development for General Motors, said while an even higher-performance version of the GTO may be added, don't expect it to carry the Judge moniker.

"We're looking at an even higher power GTO [the '04 comes with a 5.7-liter, 350-horsepower V-8], but whether it will be called Judge or not is open for debate," he said in an interview here at the GTO media preview.

"There's some positives and some negatives with that name. My early call was to name it Judge, but would BMW call one of its performance cars Judge? The Judge name also might raise collector expectations," he said of enthusiasts critical that the '04 isn't a retro rendition of the '64 GTO.

"There's been a huge misunderstanding among collectors. By calling the car GTO, we created the false impression that it would be a retro car like Ford did with the Thunderbird in trying to recapture the original '55 'Bird," Lutz said.

"GTO was a great name that we thought would get people to try the car. But we wanted a modern car, an example of what the GTO would have evolved into if it had never gone out of production [after '74]. Of course, if it hadn't gone out of production it might have evolved into a front-wheel-drive sedan so maybe it was a good thing that it was laid to rest," he said.

"But those who expected a retro of the original, with all its crudeness, will be disappointed. This is a world-class car. This time we nailed it. We can take on the Europeans with this car. We couldn't have done that with the original."
The GTO, in part, is a car that GM hopes will make folks forget the Pontiac Firebird, last sold in the 2002 model year.
"Part of the significance of bringing back the GTO is that Pontiac lost some of the excitement edge with the demise of the Firebird, which left it with the Aztek SUV, Montana minivan and a trio of front-drive sedans with powerplants used in other GM sedans but no rear-wheel-drive, V-8 performance car," Lutz said.

"We felt Pontiac needed to get excitement and performance back and make it more than yet another producer of FWD sedans," Lutz said. "We also felt there was a desire as well as a need for a refined, sophisticated car with 350-h.p. and 360 foot-pounds of torque that feels just like a German sports car--not a boy racer," he added.

And does GTO mean there will be no return of the Firebird?

"Firebird's day is gone," Lutz replied.

But that doesn't rule out Solstice, the coupe and roadster lingering in concept form.

Lutz said (Transportation, Nov. 9) a verdict on Solstice will be made at the Detroit Auto Show in January, along with details of GM's plans for a new line of rear-wheel-drive cars.

Can't image GM using Detroit to announce Solstice is a no-go, can you?

Observers expect that new RWD lineup, reportedly off a new Kappa platform, will include Chevrolet performance models, such as a Chevelle.

Lutz is mum until January, however.

Back to GTO. Lutz said it's one of those "gotta have" cars.

"If the appeal of a car is high enough, people will walk into the showroom and ask, 'Where's the GTO?' which is much different than having to lure them with thousands of dollars in incentives," he said.

Lutz noted the '04 Cadillac XLR roadster is proving to be a "gotta have" car. Demand exceeds supply and prevents incentives.

But XLR also touched a nerve.

"Dealers have gotten so many orders that some are telling customers they've been told by GM to add a $10,000 training fee because there's so much they [dealers] have to do on the car," Lutz said, noting that there is no such fee.

"We've told dealers that you can't just sell a car for four to six months because it's hot, that you have to sell it over a prolonged period of time and that you can't gouge customers with hot products," Lutz fumed.

But, he noted, GM can't tell the dealers what to charge, because that would be price-fixing.

So, if your dealer says GM has dictated an add-on fee to the XLR, look him in the mug and calmly reply:

"Liar, Liar, pants on fire."

Or something along those lines.

 

Sad, truly sad. Who would've thought good ole' GM would offer things like the Asstek and plastic cladded Avalanche but no Firebird/Trans Am.

This blows & sucks all in one neat little package.

 

very nicely stated

 

While the article mentions Lutz saying that we have to keep in mind that sometimes statements are meant to mislead. At the GTO unveiting at an Autoshow Lutz was asked about Camaro coming back and he said "maybe after a 30 year nap"

We know evidence points otherwise so why then would he say something like that????

We all know the strong support Camaro has within the walls at GM and I'm sure Lutz wants one just as bad as the next guy.
answer: no idea, he is Lutz and maybe there is a good reason behind him saying so. Maybe Firebird is the Solstice and we don't know it yet but all we do know is that the Firebird name means a lot to GM and they won't let it just simply dissappear.

 

455ci would be around 7.4L.

I don't know why they're against the use of "judge". They have no problem with bringing an "Old" nameplate back, yet make a big deal over naming the highest performance model "Judge" like it was done in the past. How could you brand it a GTO yet deny its origins? It's like bringing the Camaro back, and refusing to use "z28" or "SS" moniker for the top model. Seems retarded.

I think there's a big difference in going retro and simply using an old high performance designation. Ford uses Cobra, and chevy uses ZL-1, z06, z28, SS, etc... I just find it laughable that the "judge" designation comes off as "crude/retro" to them, yet a name like "GTO" which is just as old and has just the same ties and implications as "judge" doesn't. Wouldn't it be the same thing? You could have a modern GTO yet you can't have a modern GTO "judge". huh. Weird.

Me no understando.

 

3 points:

1. "Firebird" and "Trans Am" are right up there with Camaro, Chevelle, and Corvette.

2. If it comes back with the current crew in charge it won't be a half a$$ed attempt

3. Never say never.....

Now on this:

Preach on Brother!!!

 

Thats been bothering me too...

 

About the firebird, i think we've known/forcasted this before the camaro even went on a hiatus (sp??). It got the short end of the stick. Sad to see it go since it was always my favorite of the two twins.

 

Maybe I am just being optimistic but he never said "no, the firebird will not be brought back". He instead used said "The Firebird's day is gone". Maybe he just means, the Firebird as we know it is gone or something like that. I think it is meant to be misleading or maybe a flat-out lie. Has there been an instance that anyone knows of where one of the higher-ups made a statement like this and it proved to be a lie? Anyway, Lutz saying that doesn't give me more hope, but it doesn't make me give up either.

 

I remember that, but i took it as sarcasm or a poor attempt at humor. With the firebird quote....i just don't know. I think there's some truth to it. Either the firebird we've come to know is dead, and one with a new direction/goal is recreated or the name stays dead.

 

Isn't the demographic of a Firebird owner and a GTO owner nearly the same?

I know at shows and such, the average Firebird owners all seem to be 5-10 years older than the average Camaro.....and more willing to spend the extra $$ for the extra options a Firebird had.

Personally, I feel like there's still a niche in Pontiac's line-up for the Firebird......IF, it was still a sister to the Camaro.....which will ONLY happen if the 5th gen is a huge success.

I really do not see Pontiac sticking the Firebird nameplate on the Solstice.

As far as Lutz's comments on using the GTO name and not the Judge......oh pluuuleeeez.... They knew damned good and well they'd sell more cars with the GTO nameplate than with a Monaro nameplate........but now are too uppity to use the Judge moniker?!? ......crack smoker pluuleeez.....anything for a buck.

 

Ironic that I just answered posted on the Firebird thread 30 seconds ago.


Translations, as I read them:
1. GM feels it probally won't gain rights to the Judge name, and is acknowleging that it may become an aftermarket car.

2. Again, confirmation the 2005 GTO will have more power.

3. He's finally given up trying to talk to the hard core GTO guys, who more than anyone else, don't understand what GTO really was.

4. GTO is infact taking the high performance position at Pontiac, not "replacing" the Firebird, but going in a different performance direction.

5. The Firebird name is Officially history.

6. GM WILL be announcing production of both the Solstice & their RWD car programs. Since the Solstice is due for 2005, and the RWD program is being announced at the same time, we may see these cars starting production in 2005 as 2006 cars.

Other points:
1. Kappa (the Solstice, if ya don't know) will undoubtedly have some components of GM's RWD program. The RWD program is likely to be modular, pretty much the method Holden uses to build a wide variety of models off of a single chassis design (remember, they are the ones doing the program), so it's concievable Solstice will be part of the program (and why it's as wide as it is).

2. I still don't believe the "Chevelle" rumor, being that it started on the internet and a few Monaro based drawings in Hot Rod (if I'm not mistaken) magazine a few years ago, before the GTO was announced.

3. The line about selling a car for just 6 months made absolutlely no sense whatsoever, and therefore very suspect as to if it was actually said. Either it was misunderstood, and written wrong, or it's made up.

4. It is correct that GM NEVER EVER EVER dictates a markup of ANY kind, and neither does any other automaker. Manufacturer's suggested retail price is exactly that, a suggested price. You don't buy a car from an automaker, you buy it from the dealer. The dealer pays a certain price for a car. He can actually charge anything he wants for it, but doesn't mean he can get it. Gouging hurts the brand, but as long as customers have choices where to buy, that keeps things from getting out of hand.

If there's a "dealer added fee", simply go elsewhere. Though at $70,000 MSRP per car, I don't believe for a minute anyone is buying the car because of it's budget price.

 

That 30 year nap comment was a joke, so lighten up, will ya!

Bob Lutz is the best source of leaks at GM, very honest & straightforward, and I challenge you to name one misleading statement he's ever made.

You are overthinking, and oversimplifying at the same time here. He said what he meant and meant what he said as it now stands as far as he knows (which covers roughly 2-4 years into the future).

You're a "Conspiracy Theorist" aren't you?

 

Good


If that’s true, than I’m glad we wont see it on the Solstice.


Again Good


Agreed


Its also probably not a good thing that Lutz looks at the Firebird as a BOY RACER.

 

Maybe you're taking it the wrong way. Here's what I got from that. Price gouging turns off potential customers. I'm sure it will have more of an impact on something like say PT Cruiser, but still..... There are dealerships out there that don't understand the long term picture and won't take competition into account when pricing thus shooting the brand in the foot over the long term.

This is just Lutz speaking his mind as he does on numerous occasions....no, maybe it's not well thought out, but it's his gut reaction....like a lot of the things he says. He is very up front though.