Oh, totally agreed Everyone wants to think that an Aura here and a Malibu there should equal some sort of GM resurgence in the marketplace, but the fact of the matter is that a handful of big introductions each year doesn't mean much when there are 70-some different models sitting under eight different brands.

 

52 GTOs.... how is that possible

 

I think its getting too hard for GM to give equal love to all its children... particularly as some are treated and viewed differently to others. Therefore, time has surpassed Pontiac which was once a great brand but GM is not as strong as it used to be...

 

That is what I am thinking..this G# thing I think really alienated a lot of customers..looking for the Grand Am or the Grand Prix..

If you want to sell cars with the letter and numers game your going to have sales like them too..

The G8 should have been the Grand Prix...it would have sold a lot better than the G8 name..And its in the price range of the Grand Prix GXP that just sold last year for 32K...
There is a lot of recent history with the GTP name and that is gone..along with the sales. I bet if you offered a GTP performance package on the G8 V6 models it would sell a bit better..just shutting the door on names that held value hurt Pontiac big time..

I could go on about how I feel the name game is to blame..
and what does the G stand for???

 

The G5 being only a coupe in the US undoubtedly cost them a few thousand sales. I think being a near copy of the Cobalt and no Forced induction likely added to the low sales.

Pontiac needs an entry level car--just make it different from the Cobalt---within reason and cost of course.

Dropping Grand Am name was a bad thing to I agree--I wouldn't have minded Lemans for G8

 

Pontiac is still General Motor's second biggest selling division. That's a fact that's always forgotten in discussions of ejecting divisions at GM.

Pontiac also (unfortunately) is the division that's also aped the Chevrolet Motor division... for years. Everything Chevrolet came out with historically has also been in Pontiac showrooms, from Vega to Camaro to Monza to Laguna. That means that Pontiac's lineup can easily be incorperated into Chevrolet.

To alot of us oldtimers, Pontiac lost their position of a real car division when they lost their unique engine in the Firebird.

Pontiac's position as GM's performance division is rooted in aftermarket friendly setups. 455 engines with details on a sticker on the engine for those wanting to rebuild it to it's real potential. T/A 6.6s with shaker hoodscoops that all you have to do is cut open the seal for cold air induction (and extra horsepower. Even the "Super Duty" 4 banger that had lackluster, almost laughable horsepower numbers was made of racing grade forged performance parts and heavy duty gaskets and seals where you could build a racing grade high horepower NA or turbo engine without worrying about the internals being able to handle it. Even in the 1960s, assembly line GTOs could be complemented at the dealer with left over NASCAR parts (which created the GTO image of the 60s... stock GTOs generally were good but not jawdropping performers).

Pontiac all but kidnapped Buick's 3.8 V6 engine, and turned it into their own performance engine via supercharging and the volume of Grand Prixs with that engine.

Currently, the G8 and the Solstice are Pontiac's performance platforms. The G6 has a better performing version than any other Espilon here in the US save the one in Saab dealers. Odd man out is the G5, which doesn't have a version that outdoes the Cobalt SS.

I feel that both Saturn and Buick are more deserving of the chopping block, however I know that's not the case inside GM. Buick is highly successful in China, so that gives GM the option of importing Buicks from there to keep the brand alive or at least do all the work there and assemble them here. Saturn is GM's link to import buyers, so their loathe to let that one go. And again, Pontiac is so close to Chevrolet that the lines can be combined without so much as a hiccup.

 

GM's 2009 product line up:
Buick:
Enclave
Lacrosse
Lucerne

Cadillac:
CTS
DTS
Escalade - Tahoe - Yukon - H2
SRX
STS
XLR - Corvette

Chevrolet:
Avalance
Aveo - G3
Camaro
Cobalt - G5
Colorado - Canyon - H3T
Corvette - XLR
Equinox - Torrent
HHR
Impala
Malibu
Silverado - Sierra
Suburban
Tahoe - H2 - Yukon - Escalade
Trailblazer - Envoy - 9-7X
Traverse

GMC:
Acadia
Canyon - Colorado - H3T
Envoy - Trailblazer - 9-7X
Sierra - Silverado
Yukon - Tahoe - H2 - Escalade

Hummer:
H2
H3
H3T - Colorado - Canyon

Pontiac:
G3 - Aveo
G5 - Cobalt
G6
G8
Solstice - Sky
Torrent - Equinox
Vibe - Toyota Matrix

Saab:
9-5
9-7X - Trailblazer - Envoy

Saturn:
Astra
Aura
Outlook
Sky
Vue

With this much product/market segment overlap, it seems like it would make more sense just to kill some models rather than whole brands. I mean, how many versions of their large SUVs do they really need? Lean it down to their better vehicls that make a profit, and cut the crappy ones that don't.

 

why was not the Astra not used instead of the Cobalt??

 

The sheet metal is actually almost identical to the Cobalt, so same difference.




This is probably why Saturn only sells the hatch models.

 

What's crazy is that the Pontiac's of 2000 were mediocre cars at best..and moved well. All GM had to do was replace them...we are not talking car of the year stuff...but something.

 

I do agree that GM is doing the unthinkable by ditching some of its more famous nameplates that would retain good equity value. The alphanumeric codes seem to work OK for Euro and Japanese luxury cars but for Plain Jane Pontiac, it's more down to earth and would be better off with traditional names.

Of course, when GTO was revived there was an almighty uproar and backlash that ensued.

 

I was thinking about the hatch sold here as a Saturn..but still that Astra sedan looks a lot more pontiac than the chevy..almost a mini
G8ish

 

Its funny Branden made this post...I was thinking about this very same issue over the weekend. The axe falling on Pontiac is/will make me extremely, insanely angry, and is case #1 in the argument that top GM management just flat doesn't get it, and needs to exit...

As I've said on this very board in countless posts before, Pontiac has been axed, ignored, bludgeoned and pillaged before our very eyes since about 2003. I sold Pontiacs in 2000, the year referenced here. Sales were brisk. Life was good. We had a great model lineup. Are the products superior now? In many ways, absolutely. But I was just thinking over the weekend that those cladded models, ragged on by car mags, were a force on the street and in the showroom...

Bonnevilles sold to older folks, and larger families that wanted an expressive looking car. If the GXP model of '04-'05 had been the original SSEi, it would've sold even better. I know Guy hated the rental he had, but something tells me he wasn't the target market for that car. They were for the people who didn't want a LeSabre or Crown Vic, but wanted a big, comfy 4 door that even got decent MPG. Killing it was Asinine Move #1...the 300/Charger proved there was a market for a large 4 door. GM claimed otherwise when it killed it...citing SUV sales had taken over that market. Sounds familiar??

Grand Prixs flat sold to everyone. EVERYONE. I remember always stocking black and silver GTPs, in 2 and 4 door, at all times because they were sure to sell. GTs were the broad family offering...SEs were for people that wanted cheap, reliable transportation that wasn't as ho-hum as a Camry, or today's Impala. 2 door, 4 door, 3 engines...it had something for everyone. I sold a TON of '02 two door models when word spread '03 wouldn't have 2 doors...DESPITE the fact 2 doors accounted for TWENTY PERCENT of Grand Prix sales!!!!!!!! And the vast majority of those were retail sales, not giveaway fleet sales!! Asinine Move #2...

Asinine Move #3? Not bringing out a fully baked G6. Body cladding would've helped sell this car...as would the originally planned AWD and 275HP, right off the bat. Instead, we got boring looking cars that debuted with 220hp...woo hoo!!!!!!!! The two things Grand Am GTs did well was look aggressive and handle well (I owned an '02, and was surprised how well it drove). It was also competitive in performance with the cars that debuted with it...the Cougar, Celicas, Altimas and Accords all had similar HP, torque and performance when the '99 Grand Am debuted.

Fast forward to '04 when the '05 G6 debuted. Now we have 271hp EVOs, 225hp WRXs for a few years, 240hp Altimas. When AWD and 250+hp are the norm, this G6 was DOA...we knew it then, as did the auto rags. And this may have been the largest asinine move. I remember Guy saying watch G6 to be the future of Pontiac...if it didn't sell like hotcakes, Pontiac was toast. Now, where are we at??

Asinine Move #4 has to be the naming debacle. We've had Civics and Accords since 1976. Corollas since around then. Camrys since, what, 1984? GM LOVES trashing its own names. I made the argument on here when the G6 debuted that Grand Am was NOT a damaged brand. Neither was Grand Prix. Grand Am and Grand Prix were hallmarks to Pontiac.

Asinine move #5 was relegating Pontiac to a niche player, while Mazda and Nissan flourish. Mazda and Nissan are pretty much EXACTLY what a modern-day Pontiac should look and feel like...save the fact that Pontiac should have a RWD V8 car, whereas it doesn't make much sense for them. What do I mean by niche??? Investing in a G6 convertible instead of AWD and a better engine for the G6. Doing a Solstice, but not an AWD alternative for a G8. Not bothering with a truly competitve crossover, Murano-style. Killing the Bonneville without a replacement.


If/when Pontiac goes down, it will be the saddest day for a die-hard GM fan. I've owned several of the "crappier" Pontiac offerings...'95 Grand Am SE coupe, '98 Grand Am SE sedan, '02 Grand Am GT coupe, '01 Grand Prix GT coupe...all were solid cars with good reliability, decent performance and nice styling. Now, my wife's '04 Comp G delivers awesome performance with all the creature comforts we could ask for, with albeit an interior that I feel is in many ways inferior to my '01 GP. I'm the target market for Pontiac...yet there isn't one I'd buy right now. She refuses to drive RWD, so the G8 is out. In New England, while I do sell 300s and Chargers, a lot of us in the hilltowns CAN drive RWD, but flat don't want to. FWD is so much easier for the hills and the ice we get around here. The G6 makes us both yawn. And there's no way I'll trade V8 muscle for a Solstice.

My parents owned several "crappy" Pontiac as well...'91 Grand Am SE, '95 Grand Prix SE, '98 Grand Prix GT, '01 Grand Prix GT. There is no crossover decent enough for my mom to get rid of the Explorer she defected to. There is no FWD performance sedan for my father. The G6 bores him as well.


And GM wonders why the "We Build Excitement" division is gone? Its almost like they planned this. I mean..."Pontiac is CAR"...WTF is that???

If it sounds like I'm bitter, its because I truly am. Gas prices and credit crises' had NOTHING to do with ASININE moves like what they did to Pontiac.

The older I get, the more angry I get. Literally, GM squandered everything that was right with Pontiac.

 

all this talk of the g6's makes me wonder... ive always suspected this were true, but never had any confirmation. We all know the Vibe/Matrix are siblings, between pontiac and toyota, but what about the G6 & Solara? I really have thought they were essientially the same thing as the vibe/matrix mix.. If I am inccorect on this please set me straight, but for the life of me, they look a heck of a lot alike.


Convertibles with top down :

 

I think it hurt them alot. But hey, when you announce to the world that Pontiac is the American BMW, it's alot easier to simply give all your cars goofy alpha-numerical names, rather than get your product focused.