A look at Pontiac's Sales Numbers - What a Difference 8 years makes!
11-29-2008, 12:42 AM
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A look at Pontiac's Sales Numbers - What a Difference 8 years makes!
With all the talk of Pontiac's death I got a bit nostalgic. I am a young guy..and Pontiac has always had my heart. The Firebird always was my car..and I got really interested in the new Pontiac's when my manager rolled up in a then new 1999 Grand Am GT. I did not know what was under the hood, but the thing looked like it could blow the doors off a Mustang. In reality, that car was not a very good car...but if you go back in history it sold well. Matter of fact, many of the cladded Pontiacs that were derided in the press were great sellers. So I started doing some research on why Pontiac is now on possibly it's deathbead.
If you rewind to 2000, all of Pontiac's vehicles were FWD cars rebadged cars, and they flat sold well (aside from Firebird) This is because Pontiac at the time was very focused in that it's cars were basic GM cars designed for people who wanted something more expressive than a Chevy or Olds. Basically, Pontiac made cars that looked like they could eat anything on the road. In some cases they had more performance than other GM cars (Bonneville SSEi, Grand Prix GTP)...in other cases they there were cars like the 99 Grand Am GT that looked like it could eat a Mustang alive...though was rather pedestrian performance wise. Even the ****fire looked like it had some Firebird DNA in it.
According to media online, in CY 2000, Pontiac sold 613,548 Cars, Trucks, and SUV's.
When you compare it to today's Pontiac lineup, things are much different. The lineup is very fragmented. Since Pontiac killed cladding, they also killed performance oriented design. A G6, G5, or Vibe do not look like they want to scare the wheels off anything. A car like the Solstice is neat...but impractical to most people. The G8 is the only car that fits into the expressive Pontiac mold..but it does not sell well. This one is a mystery to me other than it is RWD and that turns off a lot of Grand Prix buyers? Pontiac is on pace to sell 300,000 cars this year..and likely less since I expect the 4th quarter to suck worse than the earlier 3.
How does that happen? See the attached chart. Pontiac had many decent sellers in 2000 that simply were not replaced. The Sunfire far outsold both the G5 and Vibe combined today. The Grand Am far outsold the G6. The Grand Prix was killed by it's 2005 redesign.
What is my basic argument here? Pontiac in 2000 sold mediocre cars...but they sold well because they had designs that meant something to people. Cladded Pontiac's like it or not sold. Many of those decent sellers were not updated and replaced (Bonneville, Firebird). The ones that were replaced, got soft G6..to borderline ugly (GP) designs that lost the last gen buyers. No one pictures a G6 blowing the wheels off a Mustang. Also, one other thing to think about. No Pontiac made in 2000 is still in production today. All the Pontiac's still being made today have new names (G5, G6, etc). That is a lot of brand equity lost.
Now I am not saying that Pontiac's today should be cladded...but they should have a little more boy racer to them. They also need some good volume vehicles. The G6 should have a design that competes with the Mazda6 and such. They need a hot compact in the mold of the Mazda3...not the boring G5/Vibe. While niche limited production vehicles like the G8, GTO, and Solstice are nice...Pontiac needs good bread and butter vehicles.
Anyway..checkout the chart below..pretty interesting. On the 2008 sales numbers I have provided two columns. One is sales through September..and the other is a full year estimate if sales stayed at the same rate. They likely will be lower for the 4th quarter. That being said..even though auto sales are in the crapper this year...I am don't think they are supposed to be lower industry wide compared to 2000.
If you rewind to 2000, all of Pontiac's vehicles were FWD cars rebadged cars, and they flat sold well (aside from Firebird) This is because Pontiac at the time was very focused in that it's cars were basic GM cars designed for people who wanted something more expressive than a Chevy or Olds. Basically, Pontiac made cars that looked like they could eat anything on the road. In some cases they had more performance than other GM cars (Bonneville SSEi, Grand Prix GTP)...in other cases they there were cars like the 99 Grand Am GT that looked like it could eat a Mustang alive...though was rather pedestrian performance wise. Even the ****fire looked like it had some Firebird DNA in it.
According to media online, in CY 2000, Pontiac sold 613,548 Cars, Trucks, and SUV's.
When you compare it to today's Pontiac lineup, things are much different. The lineup is very fragmented. Since Pontiac killed cladding, they also killed performance oriented design. A G6, G5, or Vibe do not look like they want to scare the wheels off anything. A car like the Solstice is neat...but impractical to most people. The G8 is the only car that fits into the expressive Pontiac mold..but it does not sell well. This one is a mystery to me other than it is RWD and that turns off a lot of Grand Prix buyers? Pontiac is on pace to sell 300,000 cars this year..and likely less since I expect the 4th quarter to suck worse than the earlier 3.
How does that happen? See the attached chart. Pontiac had many decent sellers in 2000 that simply were not replaced. The Sunfire far outsold both the G5 and Vibe combined today. The Grand Am far outsold the G6. The Grand Prix was killed by it's 2005 redesign.
What is my basic argument here? Pontiac in 2000 sold mediocre cars...but they sold well because they had designs that meant something to people. Cladded Pontiac's like it or not sold. Many of those decent sellers were not updated and replaced (Bonneville, Firebird). The ones that were replaced, got soft G6..to borderline ugly (GP) designs that lost the last gen buyers. No one pictures a G6 blowing the wheels off a Mustang. Also, one other thing to think about. No Pontiac made in 2000 is still in production today. All the Pontiac's still being made today have new names (G5, G6, etc). That is a lot of brand equity lost.
Now I am not saying that Pontiac's today should be cladded...but they should have a little more boy racer to them. They also need some good volume vehicles. The G6 should have a design that competes with the Mazda6 and such. They need a hot compact in the mold of the Mazda3...not the boring G5/Vibe. While niche limited production vehicles like the G8, GTO, and Solstice are nice...Pontiac needs good bread and butter vehicles.
Anyway..checkout the chart below..pretty interesting. On the 2008 sales numbers I have provided two columns. One is sales through September..and the other is a full year estimate if sales stayed at the same rate. They likely will be lower for the 4th quarter. That being said..even though auto sales are in the crapper this year...I am don't think they are supposed to be lower industry wide compared to 2000.
Last edited by formula79; 11-29-2008 at 12:50 AM.
11-29-2008, 12:57 AM
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The big drop-off is that they never directly replaced the Grand Am. The Grand Prix grew larger (and less popular) and the G6 took over the spot of the old GP. But meanwhile they had nothing in the compact class even though that was their big seller.
The belated G5, aside from being a Cobolt rebadge, is only available as a coupe, and only because the dealers rightfully whined. What was GM thinking not building a Civic/Mazda3 competitor for Pontiac?
(probably should note that 50% of those 2000 sales might have been fleet dumps, but even so the retail numbers were much better than today.)
The belated G5, aside from being a Cobolt rebadge, is only available as a coupe, and only because the dealers rightfully whined. What was GM thinking not building a Civic/Mazda3 competitor for Pontiac?
(probably should note that 50% of those 2000 sales might have been fleet dumps, but even so the retail numbers were much better than today.)
11-29-2008, 01:14 AM
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Again..I wonder how much renaming every vehicle hurt them.
11-29-2008, 01:17 AM
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2004 Grand Prix was the same size as the old one, the Grand Am was replaced by the G6. The G6 is slightly larger than the Grand Am...but that whole segment grew also. I think the G6's problem is...it is a mediocre car, just like the Grand Am...but the Grand Am was at least able to get by on the boy racer looks where the G6 is a emotionless jellybean.
The big drop-off is that they never directly replaced the Grand Am. The Grand Prix grew larger (and less popular) and the G6 took over the spot of the old GP. But meanwhile they had nothing in the compact class even though that was their big seller.
The belated G5, aside from being a Cobolt rebadge, is only available as a coupe, and only because the dealers rightfully whined. What was GM thinking not building a Civic/Mazda3 competitor for Pontiac?
(probably should note that 50% of those 2000 sales might have been fleet dumps, but even so the retail numbers were much better than today.)
The belated G5, aside from being a Cobolt rebadge, is only available as a coupe, and only because the dealers rightfully whined. What was GM thinking not building a Civic/Mazda3 competitor for Pontiac?
(probably should note that 50% of those 2000 sales might have been fleet dumps, but even so the retail numbers were much better than today.)
11-29-2008, 08:17 AM
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Please pass around the bottle of whatever you're drinking, 'cause you've obviously had enough.
I don't have the sales numbers for 2000 in front of me right now (I'm not going to boot up the work laptop during a long weekend), but if memory serves me right, it was about a 16.5M unit year, with GM having about 28% of the market share.
This year isn't in the books yet, but the summer sales were in the range of 14M annualized sales, and the past two months are more like an annualized rate of 11M units. It's shaping up to be the worst year in a couple of decades (and on a per-capita basis, the selling rate in the past couple of months is about the worst that it's been since the conclusion of WWII).
I don't have the sales numbers for 2000 in front of me right now (I'm not going to boot up the work laptop during a long weekend), but if memory serves me right, it was about a 16.5M unit year, with GM having about 28% of the market share.
This year isn't in the books yet, but the summer sales were in the range of 14M annualized sales, and the past two months are more like an annualized rate of 11M units. It's shaping up to be the worst year in a couple of decades (and on a per-capita basis, the selling rate in the past couple of months is about the worst that it's been since the conclusion of WWII).
11-29-2008, 11:02 AM
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You gotta love Pontiacs resale value.
Yesterday we picked up a used '08 G6 convertible. It stickered for $32K new. After 6 months on the road and 12K miles later, we paid $19K. 40% depreciation in 6 months
Works for me, got a practically new, fully loaded hard-top convertible for under $20K
Yesterday we picked up a used '08 G6 convertible. It stickered for $32K new. After 6 months on the road and 12K miles later, we paid $19K. 40% depreciation in 6 months
Works for me, got a practically new, fully loaded hard-top convertible for under $20K
11-29-2008, 11:12 AM
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Alot. I read a recent study in the first year of a rename, sales fell an average of 22%. Pontiac has a great heritage, Lutz is asleep at the wheel on this one. The sunfire outsold the G5 nearly 3 to 1. The other obvious loss of volume today is no Grand Prix, Bonneville or minivan. Those three vehicles made up nearly 50% of Pontiac's 2000 sales volume.
Then add decisions like not making a Solstice coupe in 2006, but only the low volume convertible and you can see why the numbers are down. Even today the G8 will sell only 25k units, when the Grand Prix had no problem doing 100k units annually. Poor decision making and not understanding the customer led to Pontiac's slide.
Then add decisions like not making a Solstice coupe in 2006, but only the low volume convertible and you can see why the numbers are down. Even today the G8 will sell only 25k units, when the Grand Prix had no problem doing 100k units annually. Poor decision making and not understanding the customer led to Pontiac's slide.
11-29-2008, 12:28 PM
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You gotta love Pontiacs resale value.
Yesterday we picked up a used '08 G6 convertible. It stickered for $32K new. After 6 months on the road and 12K miles later, we paid $19K. 40% depreciation in 6 months Works for me, got a practically new, fully loaded hard-top convertible for under $20K
Yesterday we picked up a used '08 G6 convertible. It stickered for $32K new. After 6 months on the road and 12K miles later, we paid $19K. 40% depreciation in 6 months
Works for me, got a practically new, fully loaded hard-top convertible for under $20K
11-29-2008, 01:34 PM
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I feel for you formula79. I was an Olds guy. Loved the 442, Rocket engine and just all that the division brought over the years. That said, I had two Grand Prix's as company cars. Both drove well, were reliable, had decent power and just offerd a little more Exceitment. I remember reading that when the cladding would be removed (after Olds left) that the Pontiac designers would offer real clean, neat designs. Besides the G8 and soltice, I do not see it. Also, name recognition means a lot. Why drop the Grand Am name? It was there top seller and most likely the model people would walk into a dealer and ask for. I got to say, the japanese makes stick with there names. You still see a corolla, accord, civic and so on. What the heck is a G5, G6, T1000 or what ever they used to call their cars. Ford dropped the Taurus name to the 500 then back again. Anyway, I'm off on my soap box of "why do the US car makers keep changing model names". I just thnk Pontiac lost their grove/mission.
11-29-2008, 02:20 PM
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Even still...50% less cars will not be sold this year vs. 2000. Sure you can argue that GM has less market share now...but this is the exact reason why. It is all the chicken and egg argument.
Please pass around the bottle of whatever you're drinking, 'cause you've obviously had enough.
I don't have the sales numbers for 2000 in front of me right now (I'm not going to boot up the work laptop during a long weekend), but if memory serves me right, it was about a 16.5M unit year, with GM having about 28% of the market share.
This year isn't in the books yet, but the summer sales were in the range of 14M annualized sales, and the past two months are more like an annualized rate of 11M units. It's shaping up to be the worst year in a couple of decades (and on a per-capita basis, the selling rate in the past couple of months is about the worst that it's been since the conclusion of WWII).
I don't have the sales numbers for 2000 in front of me right now (I'm not going to boot up the work laptop during a long weekend), but if memory serves me right, it was about a 16.5M unit year, with GM having about 28% of the market share.
This year isn't in the books yet, but the summer sales were in the range of 14M annualized sales, and the past two months are more like an annualized rate of 11M units. It's shaping up to be the worst year in a couple of decades (and on a per-capita basis, the selling rate in the past couple of months is about the worst that it's been since the conclusion of WWII).
11-29-2008, 02:24 PM
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Yeah..if you look, only the Vibe and G6 are on pace to outsell the Firebird..which in 2000 was Pontiac's lowest volume car.
Alot. I read a recent study in the first year of a rename, sales fell an average of 22%. Pontiac has a great heritage, Lutz is asleep at the wheel on this one. The sunfire outsold the G5 nearly 3 to 1. The other obvious loss of volume today is no Grand Prix, Bonneville or minivan. Those three vehicles made up nearly 50% of Pontiac's 2000 sales volume.
Then add decisions like not making a Solstice coupe in 2006, but only the low volume convertible and you can see why the numbers are down. Even today the G8 will sell only 25k units, when the Grand Prix had no problem doing 100k units annually. Poor decision making and not understanding the customer led to Pontiac's slide.
Then add decisions like not making a Solstice coupe in 2006, but only the low volume convertible and you can see why the numbers are down. Even today the G8 will sell only 25k units, when the Grand Prix had no problem doing 100k units annually. Poor decision making and not understanding the customer led to Pontiac's slide.
11-29-2008, 11:14 PM
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Nope - the market is perhaps down "only" 35% or so. Combine this with the fact that GM's piece of this smaller pie is a full 30% less (a decline in market share from 28% to 20%), and it should be no surprise that Pontiac would be struggling even if it had a strong lineup.
Now, I certainly agree with your hypothesis that Pontiac has a very weak lineup compared to 2000, and this of course would tend to lead towards sales performance that's even weaker than the rest of the market.
Now, I certainly agree with your hypothesis that Pontiac has a very weak lineup compared to 2000, and this of course would tend to lead towards sales performance that's even weaker than the rest of the market.
11-29-2008, 11:23 PM
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What I am mainly trying to say is that when you wonder why GM keeps loosing market share...this is exactly why. At Pontiac GM either replaced cars that sold decently with nothing at all...or niche vehicles that mean nothing. With a proper lineup, Pontiac should still be selling 450,000+ units or more. I also think the Torrent should die (uglier than the equinox), and Pontiac should have gotten the Acadia with more aggressive styling. Pontiac used to sell a crap ton of the crappy U vans.
Nope - the market is perhaps down "only" 35% or so. Combine this with the fact that GM's piece of this smaller pie is a full 30% less (a decline in market share from 28% to 20%), and it should be no surprise that Pontiac would be struggling even if it had a strong lineup.
Now, I certainly agree with your hypothesis that Pontiac has a very weak lineup compared to 2000, and this of course would tend to lead towards sales performance that's even weaker than the rest of the market.
Now, I certainly agree with your hypothesis that Pontiac has a very weak lineup compared to 2000, and this of course would tend to lead towards sales performance that's even weaker than the rest of the market.