They really believed that, didn't they? I should've known then Pontiac fans were screwed....

 

Just some similarities to the styling, that's all. The Solara is based on the Camry and built at Toyota's plant in Kentucky. The G6 is an Epsilon and is actually more closely related to the Saab 9-3 convertible. The Matrix and Vibe are both Corolla based.

 

So sales-wise or profit-wise, we can state that perhaps 10% of GM's products are "successful".

I think GM could afford to sweeten every one of it's vehicles if were to cut, say in half, the models it offers. Actually, it could probably very easily do that just by reducing overlap.

 

That was an off hand comment Bob Lutz made...like when he said there would not be another Camaro in the next 30 years...no one believed that either.

 

This idea is so misguided....everyone thinks that offering less product is the way to make more money. Sure GM can make better cars is they cut half the models from the lineup. But that does not change the fact that they will still only sell half as many cars as they were before. Olds proved that you don't regain the customers you loose when you cut models or brands. If GM lops off half their volume, they will spend another chunk of money reducing capacity rather than making product and will be right back in the place where they need to shrink again in 10 years. You never get better by getting smaller...you just get smaller.

What GM needs to do is get better at branding and platform sharing. VW makes a ton of cars for both VW and Audi off the same platform (Gulf, Rabbit, Beetle, A4, etc) and they are all good cars. If GM has good platforms, there is not reason they cannot be branded properly across several brands cheaply.

 

I do think the Lutz BMW comment was just a forward looking vision. One that probably won't pan out.


Lutz has the idea right in his brain but no way of executing it. Pontiac has so much wrong it's sad. Too many dealers, no product, no sales, no customers.

 

Well, that's the thing right there. Branding. Are you trying to tell me that the target customer for the Malibu, Aura or G6 are substantially different? Because I don't think they are - unlike VW's Rabbit/Golf/A4/Beetle. Yet GM pays for three separate dealer networks, three separate marketing budgets, three separate bureaucracies, three separate sets of sheetmetal, interiors, three separate everything.... in order to sell essentially the same product to the same people. Don't tell me that that doesn't kill profitability, versus selling an additional 100K Malibus.

Yes, you're right, VW does a great job differentiating their products, and BTW they also have a lower end Seat brand in Europe. GM does a pretty crappy job though.

The point here though, is not to say screw it, we'll walk away from afew hundred thousand sales per year. The point here is to consolidate similar products, and increase volume and profitability of the stronger ones.

Whatever happens to Pontiac, at this point, it's abit late in the day for GM to make it anything beyond what it currently is. And that is a place to sell Chevy/GMDAT/etc., rebadges.

 

That's mostly true, but there are exceptions. Toyota ditched the Tercel name in favour of Echo, then ditched Echo in favour of Yaris. They also got rid of T100 for Tundra, and Toyota Van for Sienna.

Back to the original topic, it would seem that to sell cars you have to have either flash or substance. Pontiac with the cladding had the flash, and while GM thought they had substance to go with it, once the flash was removed they found out otherwise. Perhaps this is another case where it would have been best to listen to actual customers and not the journalists, who I think were the main ones harping about the cladding. Then again Pontiac sales had been falling since 1978, so maybe at the time a change in direction seemed like a smart move.

 

I suspect that many people here have either forgotten or simply don’t know the history of GM as a company…not to be over simplistic but “GM” has “acquired” various brands since it’s founding as a holding company; some of which changed names or have long-since gone by the wayside. Oldsmobile which was, I think, the first existing automobile company acquired by GM and soon thereafter, companies like Pontiac (originally the “Oakland” company).

I think that to a significant extent, GM tried to preserve the “flavor” of those individual companies and while they certainly tried to “homogenize” many things across its brands, certain things (such as engines and drivetrains, etc) were unique…a Pontiac had a Pontiac engine, a Cadillac had a Cadillac engine, etc…each “brand” operated as an independent company and pretty much had to make their own way although they always, ultimately answered to the top brass at GM. Even as similar as the vehicles might be, there was a natural progression from Chevrolet to Pontiac to Oldsmobile to Buick to Cadillac – you could pretty much tell how successful a person was (at least on the outside) by what GM brand he drove!

Of course, the need to cut costs; especially in the face of stiff competition from Asia and Europe had, I think, a lot to do with the rapid homogenization of GM’s brands starting in the mid to late 70’s; almost to the point that today, I don’t think the public has any idea what if any difference exists between most of the “brands”; which tens to make the brands irrelevant.

My family was primarily a “Pontiac” family; although we later changed to Oldsmobile and then eventually Cadillac…but even so, Pontiac was always “special”…the 421 Catalina’s…the real GTOs…the Firebird (especially the TransAM)…a Chevy or an Olds (as special as some of their vehicles were) just didn’t have the image of a Pontiac.

We could argue about numbers, and models and names, etc. but I think all of us know that GM probably needs to shed brands.

But it’s still sad to see them go.

 

See that is where you are wrong. As a former Grand Prix owner there is no way I am buying a Impala. I would buy a Nissan or Mazda6 before I buy a Impala. With the Grand Prix dead...GM sure is not selling 100,000 more Impalas...so where did that 100,000 in volume go? Right to the competition. With the Sunfire dead, Chevy is not selling an extra 50-60K Cobalts. With the Bonneville gone...those 60K+ buyers aren't sporting Lucernes or Devilles now.

The only mainstream Pontiac I would buy a Chevy over is the G6. Compared to the new Malibu, the G6 (even the "refreshed 09) it is a boring, pile of crap jellybean. There is not one ounce of Pontiac "excitement" DNA in that car besides the arrowhead on the front. but going back to 2000, there is no way I would take a Malibu over a Grand Am GT.

What I am saying is..GM has failed massivly with branding Pontiac's since 2000. They listened to the car mags, decladded them, and took the boy racer out. By moving to softer designs they basically killed what was Pontiac's biggest selling point.

 

Well, the overwhelming majority of GPs were fleeted out at little or no profit. So I guess GM could dump tens of thousands of Impalas on rental lots to make up for that no profit volume. Very little point in that though, other than keeping workers out of the 'job bank'.

But yes, I agree with you, that GM has failed massively with Pontiac's branding. The mistakes were many. If GM was awash in cash, still held 25% or so of the market ............AND Pontiac got a strong General Manager........then Pontiac might have had another chance to thrive. None of those things exist though.

 

pretty much bang on about the G6--not sure about the body cladding though

Although that 3500 V6 was 200HP at debut and the G6 weighed a good 400+lbs more the the Grand Am.

Wife owned on (00 GT) it's HP was never great but it moved ok.

 

The Grand Prix went down in price, and started going to rental fleets in large numbers with the 2004 redesign. The 2004 did not look as good as the car it replaced, and was slower. Same issue the G6 has.

It's almost like GM is pulling the old Zarella/Camaro treatment on Pontiac. Strangle it untill killing it is jusitfiable.

 

Actually, as I remember it, Lutz made the comment when he was talking about his vision on making each GM division distinctive from each other, not as an offhanded remark. He also described Buick as the "American Roadcar", & Chevrolet as "Value".

I clearly remember the "30 years" Camaro remark because there were so many people whining, b-ching, and simply pulling their hair out over what was clearly and obviously an offhanded remark. I never saw so many emotionally unstable people in one place outside of San Francisco in my life.

 

There's alot more than a grain of truth to what Branden and Charlie are saying. Jason & Robert are also on the mark.

First, Pontiac's sales are down because of fewer models. Bonneville (which I truly hated after driving one for a number of days) & Firebird didn't sell in huge quanity . However, when they were discontinued there was nothing to replace them to make up the lost sales. The same thing happened to the Grand Prix coupe. Sure, the GTO was essentially a direct replacement for the Grand Prix GTP coupe. But there was nothing replacing the higher volume base & GT coupes. Models were discontinued and not replaced.

Second, visual excitement was pulled out. Pontiac's have been overstyled to the point of being garish since the 60s. In the 70s, Pontiacs started going overboard with body cladding and the summit of that was the Grand Am from the turn of the decade/century. Pontiac didn't get it's success in being a "Sleeper" division. The GTO's problem was that it's front end was a yawner. The G6 had no visual excitement, and promised AWD and 270 horse versions promised were never delivered. A new GTO that would have really driven Pontiac home has to date never materialized.

Third, no one in upper management seems to understand Pontiac. Pontiac buyers are almost identical in demographics as Chevrolet. The difference is that Pontiac buyers look for more racy looks. More styling pizazz. Something that stands out more than Chevrolet. Pontiacs have sold far more to women than men for a long time. The problem is that it seems that there was a conscious effort to stereotype women and defang Pontiac's aggressive looks. Fact is, women (like men) prefered the agressive look. My sister-in-law drove a 2000 pontiac Grand Am.... Black....full body classing.... with the Grand Am's overdone rear spoiler. Car was a 4 banger, but it looked as evil as hell.

Fourth, dealers are killing Pontiac. There's exceptions to every rule, but as a group Pontiac dealers are scaring away customers or simply making people completely disgusted with them (myself included). Pontiac has been handed some great cars. The GTO, the Solstice, the G8. All cars had one thing in common: Dealers charged outrageous markups on them, even after production ramped up. This is the same dealer network that only 20 years ago was selling a turbocharger or supercharger in virturally every vehicle at some level or another. From Firebird to Sunbird to Grand Prix to Grand Am. It's almost as if they forgot how they used to sell performance.

Fifth, Pontiacs are sitting in Buick showrooms. On paper, it seemed logical. Put Buick & Pontiac together, drop the overlap, and you keep the nameplates alive and have a full lineup in a showroom. However, the better and more compatable choice would likely be Saturn. While Buick and Pontiac buyers couldn't be wider apart in, both Saturn & Pontiac buyers are actually far closer. Young, a little more money than Chevy buyers, import oriented.