I still have a problem with a 275 HP six. Why on earth should a V6 "base" Camaro have near as much HP as my 95 Z/28?

Based on those options... I guess I'm gonna have to buy an SS.

 

Great!

Alittle off topic....but how about a factory backed racing series.

Maybe the haydays of Trans Am are over....but a '80s style John Player or Motorola Cup style series would get me excited.

 

The base V6 in the 4th gens out-powers a large majority of the high performance cars from the previous generations, particularly the early 3rd's and late 2 gens. A real-deal 200hp was nothing to sneeze at in 1983.


Let's, pretty please, NOT go there.

 

Also....

I'm not too much into superfluous badging.
ie...if the 1LE package is ordered, no need for an extra badge IMO, those with any interest will know what it is, without a callout..

 

1) Passenger 6-way = $$$$ and complexity. I gave yer wife an adjustable lumbar... tell her to suck it up and be a trooper.

I'll be standing WAY over here.

2) The only really acceptable infinitely adjustable recliner in the North American market is the PL Porter unit and it's dervatives... unless you want to buy the one I patented for a former employer.

Infinitely adjustable fore/aft and tip/tilt is a major mechanical pain in the *** - at that point you go power and call it even.

Minor issue with the PL Porter style units - the spring used to polish the rod it operated on after a few bazillion cycles (springs are hella-hard, the rod ain't...). Once it did that, it couldn't hold as well on the rod and bad things start to happen. I like my idea better, of course.

Hrumph... come to think of it... I never got my plaque for that... maybe they didn't patent it.

If not, it's public domain now because it was disclosed. Email/PM me for details.

I did a fore/aft track with it also, at least mentally.

 

This is a good point.

There needs to be a Camaro class in drag racing, like the Pro 5.0 class. The basically defunct truck class that Lingenfelter used to run in would be a good target.

Oh yeah... it sure as HE!! better be faster than the Sport Compact classes.

Add to that the idea of a Showroom Stock racing class and take IROC back - if it still survives.

 

Lessee....

"she" has an Envoy instead of a nice little car based SUV 'cuz it tows the Camaro better.
"he" has a Sonoma so he doesnt' have to put jerry cans in her Envoy.
"he" has a Z28 hardtop (with a pretty generous mod budget) so that "she" doesn't have to live with a roll bar in the 'vert.
"he" has an SS 'vert 'cuz well, isn't that what guys do for their 2nd childhood?
"she" accepts that every vacation (which come is 2 or 3 - one week blocks e every year) includes driving at least 1,000 miles each way because there happens to be some sort of Camaro gathering that "he" would like to attend.

Bottom line ..."she's" not going to be asked to "suck it up" ...."he'll" get a 383 for the hardtop and a set of Recaro's for the 'vert instead

I figure I'm being pretty generous ...Chevy can get either the Convertible OR the 1LE right ...and probably get a sale. But "getting it right" is imperative.

 

...PacerX....if you make any changes to the spreadsheet...just e-mail them to me and I'll revise the web site stuff.

 

You got it bro.

 

Pleae take these thoughts into consideration...

Won't the V6 and V8 both be SFI? Pretty much every gas engine is SFI now, so why even mention that?

why even bother with a 5 speed manual? I know the tooling is paid for many times over, but it would be easier to just put the 6 speed in every Camaro ordered with a stick. Plus, that would help with CAFE

ALSO, why not have the standard gear ratio be the 3.42? It would also help with CAFE. Let 3.73s be optional for all models. I have noticed that in today's market, small motored vehicles often have much steeper gears. I can get many exampls if you wish...

Positraction should be standard for all models. It would simply be easier to do at the factory. 1 differential for all models instead of 2. After all, the base Camaro is still a sports car.

I am a proponent for an optional "better" brake package, but why 2 of them? In fact, if every model other than the base model has better brakes, why even offer the regular brakes on the base model? That's more cost. I think ALL Camaros should have EXCELLENT brakes. Think of this... your son or daughter wants a new Camaro for their first car. As a parent, you probably don't want to pay the insurance on the high power model and you realize that accidents happen to everybody, so you put them in a base model Camaro. Which brake package would you want them to have?
IMHO The only benefit of giving the base car subpar brakes would be so it can have 16" wheels.
And since I'm all about reducing the number of different components on this car to keep teh overall price down, I question why a 16" wheel is even needed anymore? By the time the Camaro comes out, how many new cars will still riding on 15s or 16s? The same cost would go into designing a 16" wheel as a 17" wheel, but if more of your models use 17s, then they will be able to use the same tires.

Back to brakes, what would be different in the "1LE Ultra Performance Brake Package" ???

Cruise control should be optional for the base model.

You have "Sport Appearance Package" optional on the Z28, but then have this "Z28 Appearance Package (*can be combined with Sport Appearance Package)" So don't make the Sport appearance optional on the Z.


If you haven't noticed, I am all for making even the base Camaro a real sports car. This version of the car would compete against all kinds of import competition. yes, the "Berlinnetta" package would help out, but even the base Camaro needs to be able to hold it's own against the top of the line Civic. Or maybe at least the Si version. The Berlinnetta should be able to make short work of the Type-R Civic.

All in all, by making the base model better, you make every model better.

 

Yes Sir,
I think I could put something together with those options that would make me happy.

Oh yeah an the RPOs for the engines should be:
SS: LS7 (6.4L) or LS2 (6.0L) rated at 425HP
and
Z28: LS6 (5.7L) rated at 400HP

 

Most likely they would be, but if you watch the nomenclature in many manufacturer's brochures they tend to keep the alphabet soup down to a dull roar. Imagine reading this:

"3.5L SFI VVTi DOHC 90* V6 w/ DOD"

I've got an engineering degree and it takes me 5 minutes to sort through that mess.



Throwing a T56 behind the V6 would be pretty expensive. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, but the business case would have to work out to justify it.



1) Gear ratios are an approximation.

2) GM, because of they make the best production motors on the planet, tends to have their torque curves in the right places - other manufacturers don't. This allows GM to run a numerically lower final drive in many cases and get better fuel economy while still laying the smack down on the bad guys.

This is EXACTLY why 2001 Cobras match 2001 SS's out of the hole - and get whacked up top. The Cobra has a MUCH HIGHER final drive than the 3.42 I got stock. When I was stock, we'd run pretty much even in 1st, I'd pull slowly in second, and in third it was "SEE YA LATER BUB!".

BMW M3's have the same problem.

A rule of thumb with racing a 4th gen car was:

"If we're even through second, I'll dust him in third."

3) Big wheels and tires push the actual final drive ratio down. GM Powertrain would spend LOTS of time and money figuring out what is appropriate for each combination, but I'm willing to bet you won't see anything radical like a 4.56, and the base car probably won't get over a 3.42 - if the wheels and tires stay the same height.



If the business case can justify a posi standard in the base car, I say go for it. If not, then the base cars get the peg-leg.



Cost.



Nope.

Z28/SS/Berlinettas would be the cars that need beefy brakes - and the buyers of those cars will pay for them. The base car can't justify the cost and the weight, and the 1LE is going to be expensive.



My son or daughter IS NOT getting a RWD high-performance car for their first car.

They're getting an el cheapo FWD slug with a manual transmission (like my current beater Cavalier - which is EARMARKED for my daughter to learn with) so they can learn to drive safely.

Again, the base car cannot justify the cost and the weight. We have CAFE to think about too.



Again, COST. You're building a $30,000 base car.



My thought is to basically throw the C5/C6 brakes on the car with cross-drilled and slotted rotors and sticky pads. Honestly, the pad is really the majority of the difference. If you buy a 1LE, you better be ready to put up with some dust and regular pad changes.



That could be included in an option package.



This mimics the 4th gen - you could get the cladding package on a Z28, but not an SS. Z28's will have a separate appearance package anyway (badging and such, maybe a different spoiler).



I'm not. If you want a sports car, then pay for a sports car. We (the group) agreed that a V6 sports car was possible and slotted the "Berlinetta" idea for it, but Camaro IS NOT a Corvette. It must cater to a lower price point and have sporty performance.

The more expensive, higher optioned, more powerful cars handle the sports car segment, and we put a lot of brainpower into determining the features those should have.

The base car's target should be exceptional appearance, good handling, comfortable, low maintenance, adequate power and braking and above all reasonable cost.



ANY Camaro's target IS NOT and SHOULD NEVER BE a Civic. That's what Cobalts are for. Base 4th gens already make short work of Civics.

The Berlinetta's target is the G35/350Z/WRX market. It should easily come in under the price of the Japanese competitors and provide better performance and features.

For the base car, we're aimed squarely at the V6 Mustang and Sebring market. I think the V6 Mustang and Sebring are, dare I say it, no hurdle whatsoever - a properly designed GM entry should blow them both away with ease in every respect.



Up to a point. Make it too expensive and nobody buys it. $30,000 is too much for a base Camaro.

 

That's not entirely true! The Civic Si is within a half a second of a V6 Camaro in acceleration and quarter mile (as close as a tenth depending on the magazine).

http://v6camaro.homestead.com/files/v6performance.htm
http://www.modernracer.com/hondacivicsi2002.html

 

The V6 Mustang is not the only competitor of the base Camaro. You've got to look at other "performance" cars in the ~$25k price range.

Acura RSX
BMW 3 series
Dodge Neon SRT4
Ford Focus SVT
Honda Accord Coupe
Honda Civic Si
Hyundai V6 Tiburon
Mazda6
Mazda Miata
Mazda RX-8
Mini Cooper S
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
Subaru Impreza
Toyota Camry Solara
Toyota Celica
Toyota MR-2
Volkswagen GTI
Volkswagen New Beetle Turbo

THESE are the cars and the types of cars that killed the F-body as we knew it. This is the Camaro's competition. And they are all priced under $30k in today's money.

By the way, of the cars I listed above, wanna guess how many have 6 speed manuals? About half...