Knew Ford couldn't get it right..03 Cobra Production stopped due to quality issues.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Remember, this is the same Blue Oval News that once ran a report about how one of their guys was invited into GM powertrain to view the overhead cam 5th gen F-Body engine about 2 years ago. 
Yes, I do have a very long memory.
Yes, I do have a very long memory.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Points of reference..
RE5.0...
One last thought...
How many times were these car lines with special, limited powertains shut down?
90-95 Corvette ZR1
96 Corvette LT4
01-xx Corvette LS6
89 Turbo T/A
Typhoon
Syclone
Grand National
The point is... is it NOT normal for complete production of that model to be shut down if the problem was not a major issue... People , be it GM fans or otherwise, have a legitimate reason to be seriosuly concerned with Ford quality right now.
One last thought...
How many times were these car lines with special, limited powertains shut down?
90-95 Corvette ZR1
96 Corvette LT4
01-xx Corvette LS6
89 Turbo T/A
Typhoon
Syclone
Grand National
The point is... is it NOT normal for complete production of that model to be shut down if the problem was not a major issue... People , be it GM fans or otherwise, have a legitimate reason to be seriosuly concerned with Ford quality right now.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
All I am saying is recalls have damaged the value of many of Fords major brands. I mean who cares that all the Focuses problems were the first year..now the cars image is seriously hampered by them. Sure the Trailblazer had a lot of recalls..but i don't see people saying don't buy them because of all the issues. People say that about a lot of Ford models. They have screwed up so many launches of new models that at this point they know they can't afford to mess up another one...yet they continue to.
Botched launches include
New Explorer
T-Bird
Cobra
Focus
Escape
Those are major products for Ford and they messed them all up at launch.
The Escape had like 5 recalls..
If you want to see all of Ford's recalls BON has them listed here..
http://www.bonforums.com/recalls/
edit: there servers are down right now...
You will have to go to the site for the links to the stories..
Feature Report
Ford Recalling Taurus, Sable Over Power Brake Pedals. 08 October 02. AP.
Ford Launches Extended Warranty For Focus. 09 Sept 02. AutomotiveNews.
Tires Plague Ford Again. Recall To Affect Expedition And Navigator SUVs. 20 August 02. FreePress.
New Tire Recall Hits Ford SUVs. 20 August 02. Detroit News.
Ford Motor Company Statement On Continental Voluntary Recall. 19 August 02. Ford.
Ford Focus Recall List. 08 August 02. CAS.
Ford Recalling 250,000 Windstars. 28 June 02. Bloomberg.
Ford To Recall 16,500 T-Birds Due To Seat Belt Concern. 15 June 02. Reuters.
Taurus SHO: Cam Failure Information. V8SHO.com
Ford To Issue Safety Recall For Focus SVT. 14 April 02. Robert Lane.
Ford Focus Safety Studied. NHTSA Points To Four Problems. 03 April 02. Detroit News
Tire recall winds down. 12 March 02. Detroit News
Ford tackles images of slipping quality. Carmaker touts focus on owner complaints. 22 Feb 02. Jeffrey McCracken
Volvo combats "electrical hazard". 22 Feb 02. Car Today
Ford Recalls Mustang, Taurus For Fire Risk 14 Feb 02. AP via Detroit News
Ford to recall Focus models for rear wheel bearing replacement. 25 Nov 01. Robert Lane
Ford recalls 1999-2000 SVT Lightning to replace intercooler. 07 Nov 01. Robert Lane
2000 and 2001 models of the Ford Focus, Taurus, Expedition, Excursion and F-series pickups; the Lincoln Continental, Town Car and Navigator; and the Mercury Sable. Nearly 1.1 million of the recalled vehicles were made between February and September 2000. 31 Oct 01. Detroit Free Press.
Recall for 2000, 2001 F-Series incorrect radiator. 27 Oct 01
Recall for certain 2001 Focus ZX3 models for fuse cover replacement. 25 Oct 01
Ford changes recall, owner notification names 22 Oct 01
Ford recalls 777,000 Windstar vans 07 Sept 01
aerostar_enginecable.htm
cobra_knuckleproced.htm
cobra_knuckle.htm
contour_waterpump.htm
contour_fan.htm
contourcougar_brake.htm
engine_intake46.htm
engine_intake462.htm
explorer_swaybar.htm
explorer_pcm.htm
explorer_40engine2.htm
explorer_40engine1.htm
explorer_02glass2.htm
explorer_02glass.htm
explorer_00s58.htm
focus_sony.htm
focus_hinge.htm
fseries_fueltank.htm
fseries_fuel.htm
lightningcooler.htm
mustang_ebrake.htm
navigator_engine2.htm
navigator_engine.htm
quality_lacking.htm
quality_2000plummets.htm
Ford, Lincoln-Mercury Recall list
Special Programs
Lincoln Commitment
Branded titles
Safety Recalls (from 11-08-00 to current). Recall numbers is blue indicate that the selling dealership must perform recall before vehicle can be sold. ALSO SEE ARTICLES AT THE END OF THIS PAGE.
Recall#
Date
Description
01S18
5-21-01
2002 Explorer /Mountaineer Passenger Side Tires Inspection (49,000 owner notification letters sent)
01S16
4-20-01
2001 Taurus/Sable Front Seat Belt Buckle Replacement
01S15
4-12-01
1999-2000 Mustang Cobra and 2000 SVT Mustang Cobra R Rear Knuckle Replacement. Includes 41 minutes for alignment.
01S14
4-03-01
1997-2001 E-150 Wagons, E-350 Wagons, and E-350 Ambulance Prep Package Vans, Equipped With 35 Gallon Mid-Ship Fuel Tanks - Fuel Tank Insulator Installation
01S13
3-30-01
2001 Focus Four (4) Door and Wagons - Seat Back Recliner Handle Spring Replacement
01S09
3-28-01
2000 Taurus, Sable and Excursion - Headlamp Switch **** Replacement
01S12
3-22-01
2001 F350 Crew Cab DRW 156" WB equipped with 6 3/4 ft Box - Fuel Filler Pipe Ground
01S11
3-16-01
2001 F150 4x2 - Front Brake Hose Replacement
01S03
3-9-01
1999 Cougar - Brake Lamp Switch Jumper Harness Replacement and Switch Inspection
01S08
3-6-01
2000-2001 Taurus and Sable Vehicles with Power Adjustable Foot Pedals - Brake Lamp Switch Replacement
01S02
3-6-01
1999 - 2000 Cougar - Battery Cable Routing/Retention
01S10
3-5-01
2001 F-Series, F-Series Super Duty, Excursion, and Expedition Vehicles Built Through February 28, 2001 - Driver's Airbag Replacement
01S06
3-5-01
2000 and 2001 Taurus Sedans - Deck Lid Spoiler Center High Mount Stop Lamp Resistor Installation
01S07
3-2-01
1998-2000 Ranger-EV Transaxle Attaching Bolts Replacement. 1,300 owner notification letters sent.
01S05
3-1-01
1999 - 2001 F-450 and F550 Super Duty Equipped with 19.5 Inch Steel Cord Sidewall Tires - Valve Stem Inspection and, If Necessary, Valve Stem and Tire Replacement
00S28
2-28-01
2000 and 2001 F-650 and F-750 equipped with Air Brakes - Anti-Lock Brake ECU (Controller) Replacement
00S56
2-5-01
1997 Aerostar Vehicles - Accelerator Cable Replacement
00S59
2-2-01
1993 through 1997 Mercury Villagers and 1998 Model Year Mercury Villagers - Filler Pipe Vent Hose Replacement
00S34
1-31-01
1998 Louisville and Aeromax Trucks with Tandem Rear Axles and ABS - Air Reservoir Isolation
00S44-S1
1-24-01
1995 and 1996 Contour/Mystique - Engine Cooling Fan Electronic Fuse Installation
00S57
1-12-01
1993 F-150 through F-450 gasoline fueled trucks with dual fuel tanks
00S55
1-12-01
2000 and 2001 Focus Vehicles - Left Rear Seat Back Outboard Hinge Replacement
00S42
1-03-01
1999 and 2000 Windstar Vehicles - Front Electronic Module (FEM) Reconfiguration To Modify The Delayed Accessory Relay Operation - FMVSS 118 Non-Compliance
00S58
12-22-00
1997-1998 Explorer/Mountaineer Vehicles Equipped with 4.0L SOHC Engine - Throttle Body Plate Sticking Closed
00S51
12-20-00
1998 - 2001 Town Car Limousines - FMVSS 110 Compliance
00S45
12-18-00
2001 Ranger, Explorer Sport, and Explorer Sport Trac Vehicles - Hood Latch Striker Replacement
00S54
12-15-00
2001 Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis Vehicles - Inspection of Restraint Control Module
00S53
12-15-00
2001 Windstar and Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Inspection of Front Crash Sensors
00S52
12-15-00
2001 Windstar, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Replacement of Certain Supplemental Restraint System Components
00S43
12-15-00
2000 Mustang GT - Intake Manifold Replacement
00S50
12-14-00
2000 Focus - Decklid Wire Harness Replacement
00S37-S1
12-11-00
1994 - 2001 Mustang Vehicles Equipped With Manual Transmission Park Brake Control Assembly Modification
00S48
12-6-00
1999 and 2000 F-53 Motorhome Stripped Chassis, F-650, and F-750 Trucks Equipped with size 20 EDL TRW Tie Rod and Drag Link Ball Sockets - Tie Rod Ball Socket and Drag Link Inspection
00S26-S4
12-6-00
2001 Windstar, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Additional Affected Vehicles
00S46
12-6-00
1999 and 2000 Explorer and Mountaineer - Powertrain Calibration Update
00S47
12-01-00
1995 through 1997 Explorer and 1997 Mountaineer - Replacement of Left and Right Front Sway Bar Links
00S49
11-21-00
2001 Escape Vehicles - Windshield Wiper Module Inspection and Possible Replacement
00S39-S1
11-15-00
2000 - 2001 Lincoln LS - Front Suspension Lower Ball Joints
00S38
11-10-00
1998-2000 Contour Bi-fuel Vehicles - Fuel Filler Grommet
00S41
11-08-00
2000 Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Seat Belt Inspection
Special Advisories
#
Date
Description
1
1-17-01
Contour/Mystique 2.5L premature water pump failure
2
2-16-01
1999-2000 F150 Lightning premature intercooler failure
Emissions System Recalls Recall#
Date
Description
01E14
5-23-01
Certain 2001 Model Year Ranger Vehicles Equipped with 2.5L Engines Certified to Tier 1 Emissions Standards
00E11-S1
2-07-01
Certain 1997 and 1998 Taurus, Taurus SHO, Sable, Town Car, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Explorer, Mountaineer, Certain 1998 and 1999 Escort, Tracer Vehicles and 1998 Windstar Vehicles - On-Board Diagnostic System Upgrade
00E13
12-08-00
Certain 2001 Model Year Mercury Cougar Vehicles Equipped with 2.0L Zetec Engines and Manual Transaxles - Powertrain Control Module (PCM) Calibration Correction
00E12
11-08-00
Certain 1999 Model Year F250 and F350 Series Trucks Equipped With 7.3L Diesel and California Warm Weather Calibration - PCM Reprogram
Basically all I am saying is with Ford being in the media over quality issues they CAN'T afford to have anything go wrong no matter how small. It is why thier stock is down so much..the general public is loosing confidence in the comany overall.
In short it's not the brand loyal people on her defending Ford that they even give a damn about...because they will buy a Ford no matter what..it's the people in the general public who Ford is loosing on big time.
The media is going to be sensationalistic...they can either blame that and not do better...or turn up the design and quality a few notches and build a better product.
Botched launches include
New Explorer
T-Bird
Cobra
Focus
Escape
Those are major products for Ford and they messed them all up at launch.
The Escape had like 5 recalls..
If you want to see all of Ford's recalls BON has them listed here..
http://www.bonforums.com/recalls/
edit: there servers are down right now...
You will have to go to the site for the links to the stories..
Feature Report
Ford Recalling Taurus, Sable Over Power Brake Pedals. 08 October 02. AP.
Ford Launches Extended Warranty For Focus. 09 Sept 02. AutomotiveNews.
Tires Plague Ford Again. Recall To Affect Expedition And Navigator SUVs. 20 August 02. FreePress.
New Tire Recall Hits Ford SUVs. 20 August 02. Detroit News.
Ford Motor Company Statement On Continental Voluntary Recall. 19 August 02. Ford.
Ford Focus Recall List. 08 August 02. CAS.
Ford Recalling 250,000 Windstars. 28 June 02. Bloomberg.
Ford To Recall 16,500 T-Birds Due To Seat Belt Concern. 15 June 02. Reuters.
Taurus SHO: Cam Failure Information. V8SHO.com
Ford To Issue Safety Recall For Focus SVT. 14 April 02. Robert Lane.
Ford Focus Safety Studied. NHTSA Points To Four Problems. 03 April 02. Detroit News
Tire recall winds down. 12 March 02. Detroit News
Ford tackles images of slipping quality. Carmaker touts focus on owner complaints. 22 Feb 02. Jeffrey McCracken
Volvo combats "electrical hazard". 22 Feb 02. Car Today
Ford Recalls Mustang, Taurus For Fire Risk 14 Feb 02. AP via Detroit News
Ford to recall Focus models for rear wheel bearing replacement. 25 Nov 01. Robert Lane
Ford recalls 1999-2000 SVT Lightning to replace intercooler. 07 Nov 01. Robert Lane
2000 and 2001 models of the Ford Focus, Taurus, Expedition, Excursion and F-series pickups; the Lincoln Continental, Town Car and Navigator; and the Mercury Sable. Nearly 1.1 million of the recalled vehicles were made between February and September 2000. 31 Oct 01. Detroit Free Press.
Recall for 2000, 2001 F-Series incorrect radiator. 27 Oct 01
Recall for certain 2001 Focus ZX3 models for fuse cover replacement. 25 Oct 01
Ford changes recall, owner notification names 22 Oct 01
Ford recalls 777,000 Windstar vans 07 Sept 01
aerostar_enginecable.htm
cobra_knuckleproced.htm
cobra_knuckle.htm
contour_waterpump.htm
contour_fan.htm
contourcougar_brake.htm
engine_intake46.htm
engine_intake462.htm
explorer_swaybar.htm
explorer_pcm.htm
explorer_40engine2.htm
explorer_40engine1.htm
explorer_02glass2.htm
explorer_02glass.htm
explorer_00s58.htm
focus_sony.htm
focus_hinge.htm
fseries_fueltank.htm
fseries_fuel.htm
lightningcooler.htm
mustang_ebrake.htm
navigator_engine2.htm
navigator_engine.htm
quality_lacking.htm
quality_2000plummets.htm
Ford, Lincoln-Mercury Recall list
Special Programs
Lincoln Commitment
Branded titles
Safety Recalls (from 11-08-00 to current). Recall numbers is blue indicate that the selling dealership must perform recall before vehicle can be sold. ALSO SEE ARTICLES AT THE END OF THIS PAGE.
Recall#
Date
Description
01S18
5-21-01
2002 Explorer /Mountaineer Passenger Side Tires Inspection (49,000 owner notification letters sent)
01S16
4-20-01
2001 Taurus/Sable Front Seat Belt Buckle Replacement
01S15
4-12-01
1999-2000 Mustang Cobra and 2000 SVT Mustang Cobra R Rear Knuckle Replacement. Includes 41 minutes for alignment.
01S14
4-03-01
1997-2001 E-150 Wagons, E-350 Wagons, and E-350 Ambulance Prep Package Vans, Equipped With 35 Gallon Mid-Ship Fuel Tanks - Fuel Tank Insulator Installation
01S13
3-30-01
2001 Focus Four (4) Door and Wagons - Seat Back Recliner Handle Spring Replacement
01S09
3-28-01
2000 Taurus, Sable and Excursion - Headlamp Switch **** Replacement
01S12
3-22-01
2001 F350 Crew Cab DRW 156" WB equipped with 6 3/4 ft Box - Fuel Filler Pipe Ground
01S11
3-16-01
2001 F150 4x2 - Front Brake Hose Replacement
01S03
3-9-01
1999 Cougar - Brake Lamp Switch Jumper Harness Replacement and Switch Inspection
01S08
3-6-01
2000-2001 Taurus and Sable Vehicles with Power Adjustable Foot Pedals - Brake Lamp Switch Replacement
01S02
3-6-01
1999 - 2000 Cougar - Battery Cable Routing/Retention
01S10
3-5-01
2001 F-Series, F-Series Super Duty, Excursion, and Expedition Vehicles Built Through February 28, 2001 - Driver's Airbag Replacement
01S06
3-5-01
2000 and 2001 Taurus Sedans - Deck Lid Spoiler Center High Mount Stop Lamp Resistor Installation
01S07
3-2-01
1998-2000 Ranger-EV Transaxle Attaching Bolts Replacement. 1,300 owner notification letters sent.
01S05
3-1-01
1999 - 2001 F-450 and F550 Super Duty Equipped with 19.5 Inch Steel Cord Sidewall Tires - Valve Stem Inspection and, If Necessary, Valve Stem and Tire Replacement
00S28
2-28-01
2000 and 2001 F-650 and F-750 equipped with Air Brakes - Anti-Lock Brake ECU (Controller) Replacement
00S56
2-5-01
1997 Aerostar Vehicles - Accelerator Cable Replacement
00S59
2-2-01
1993 through 1997 Mercury Villagers and 1998 Model Year Mercury Villagers - Filler Pipe Vent Hose Replacement
00S34
1-31-01
1998 Louisville and Aeromax Trucks with Tandem Rear Axles and ABS - Air Reservoir Isolation
00S44-S1
1-24-01
1995 and 1996 Contour/Mystique - Engine Cooling Fan Electronic Fuse Installation
00S57
1-12-01
1993 F-150 through F-450 gasoline fueled trucks with dual fuel tanks
00S55
1-12-01
2000 and 2001 Focus Vehicles - Left Rear Seat Back Outboard Hinge Replacement
00S42
1-03-01
1999 and 2000 Windstar Vehicles - Front Electronic Module (FEM) Reconfiguration To Modify The Delayed Accessory Relay Operation - FMVSS 118 Non-Compliance
00S58
12-22-00
1997-1998 Explorer/Mountaineer Vehicles Equipped with 4.0L SOHC Engine - Throttle Body Plate Sticking Closed
00S51
12-20-00
1998 - 2001 Town Car Limousines - FMVSS 110 Compliance
00S45
12-18-00
2001 Ranger, Explorer Sport, and Explorer Sport Trac Vehicles - Hood Latch Striker Replacement
00S54
12-15-00
2001 Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis Vehicles - Inspection of Restraint Control Module
00S53
12-15-00
2001 Windstar and Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Inspection of Front Crash Sensors
00S52
12-15-00
2001 Windstar, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Replacement of Certain Supplemental Restraint System Components
00S43
12-15-00
2000 Mustang GT - Intake Manifold Replacement
00S50
12-14-00
2000 Focus - Decklid Wire Harness Replacement
00S37-S1
12-11-00
1994 - 2001 Mustang Vehicles Equipped With Manual Transmission Park Brake Control Assembly Modification
00S48
12-6-00
1999 and 2000 F-53 Motorhome Stripped Chassis, F-650, and F-750 Trucks Equipped with size 20 EDL TRW Tie Rod and Drag Link Ball Sockets - Tie Rod Ball Socket and Drag Link Inspection
00S26-S4
12-6-00
2001 Windstar, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Additional Affected Vehicles
00S46
12-6-00
1999 and 2000 Explorer and Mountaineer - Powertrain Calibration Update
00S47
12-01-00
1995 through 1997 Explorer and 1997 Mountaineer - Replacement of Left and Right Front Sway Bar Links
00S49
11-21-00
2001 Escape Vehicles - Windshield Wiper Module Inspection and Possible Replacement
00S39-S1
11-15-00
2000 - 2001 Lincoln LS - Front Suspension Lower Ball Joints
00S38
11-10-00
1998-2000 Contour Bi-fuel Vehicles - Fuel Filler Grommet
00S41
11-08-00
2000 Lincoln Town Car Vehicles - Seat Belt Inspection
Special Advisories
#
Date
Description
1
1-17-01
Contour/Mystique 2.5L premature water pump failure
2
2-16-01
1999-2000 F150 Lightning premature intercooler failure
Emissions System Recalls Recall#
Date
Description
01E14
5-23-01
Certain 2001 Model Year Ranger Vehicles Equipped with 2.5L Engines Certified to Tier 1 Emissions Standards
00E11-S1
2-07-01
Certain 1997 and 1998 Taurus, Taurus SHO, Sable, Town Car, Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Explorer, Mountaineer, Certain 1998 and 1999 Escort, Tracer Vehicles and 1998 Windstar Vehicles - On-Board Diagnostic System Upgrade
00E13
12-08-00
Certain 2001 Model Year Mercury Cougar Vehicles Equipped with 2.0L Zetec Engines and Manual Transaxles - Powertrain Control Module (PCM) Calibration Correction
00E12
11-08-00
Certain 1999 Model Year F250 and F350 Series Trucks Equipped With 7.3L Diesel and California Warm Weather Calibration - PCM Reprogram
Basically all I am saying is with Ford being in the media over quality issues they CAN'T afford to have anything go wrong no matter how small. It is why thier stock is down so much..the general public is loosing confidence in the comany overall.
In short it's not the brand loyal people on her defending Ford that they even give a damn about...because they will buy a Ford no matter what..it's the people in the general public who Ford is loosing on big time.
The media is going to be sensationalistic...they can either blame that and not do better...or turn up the design and quality a few notches and build a better product.
Last edited by formula79; Oct 31, 2002 at 08:21 AM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Originally posted by guionM
Remember, this is the same Blue Oval News that once ran a report about how one of their guys was invited into GM powertrain to view the overhead cam 5th gen F-Body engine about 2 years ago.
Yes, I do have a very long memory.
Remember, this is the same Blue Oval News that once ran a report about how one of their guys was invited into GM powertrain to view the overhead cam 5th gen F-Body engine about 2 years ago.
Yes, I do have a very long memory.
I have that confirmed at GM and with Robert Lane though i didn;t see it.
The thing is it was never concrete for a 5th gen..it was a technology test mule on the same level as the AWD 4th gen test mules GM built as a What if..
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
formula79, some of you GM guys talk as if GM is "that" much better. Care to list their recalls and TSB's as well? It's only fair right? Reality is, them and ford have sh*t for quality. The only Ford i've bought and the only ones that i'll probably buy is the Mustang and trucks. I'm not as brand loyal as some of you would think. I'd gladly step into a Nissan 350Z, Wrx, Evo, f-bod to my choosing.
Since Fords problems are being put to the tables and recent recalls aside, here are some studies based on long term durability. Look at where the core GM cars rank and look at the Fords.
2002 Consumer Reports Annual Auto Issue
Reliability, Full Size Trucks
1) Toyota Tundra: 40% MORE RELIABLE than Average
2) Ford F-150: 15% MORE RELIABLE than Average
3) Chevy/GMC 1500 2WD: 30% LESS RELIABLE than Average
4) Chevy/GMC 1500 4WD: 50% LESS RELIABLE than Average
i'll have to say that their vehicles are about average. Atleast based on J.D. Powers multiple long term durability tests which have put Ford above Industry average and ahead of SAAB and NISSAN as well as a handful of other cars that placed below industry average, and Consumer Reports which puts them at about average. Compare them to the other big 2, you'd see that they've done better.
Each of the dependability tests take place over a 5 year period. So from 1994-2001
2001 Vehicle dependability study
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrel...ID=585&CatID=1
2000 Vehicle dependability study
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrel...ID=486&CatID=1
1st 5 year study was published 1999. Vehicle dependability study dating back to 94.
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrel...ID=292&CatID=1
Consumer reports Best & Worst Used cars or cars to Avoid.
LINK TOO LONG SO CLICK HERE
AND THERE ARE MORE. Much more. I'll gladly post more studies that'll point to this. I'll even quote and post the News article (if i could find it) that talked about how GM passed FORD in quality for the very 1st time. Care to count the number of year both corporations have existed? While we're at it, anyone care to compare the TSB's for the f-bods and the mustangs year to year or between trucks or similar cars? Chevy to Ford?
Conclusion: GM is no better. We can yap and put Ford quality down when GM really isn't better. You want to put ford quality down? get an import so you'll have room to speak.
Darth Xed, Good point. But I'll reserve my judgement on the new cobras quality when several cars owned by customers show signs of serious problems. So far, there have been none. It may be too early. If ford is able to catch something on the assembly line and fix it before it reaches customers, then i don't see what the big fuss is about. We don't even know what the issue is so it's everything for the time being is based off speculation. Again, we don't even know what the issue is or what it concerns.
I'm done ranting
, flame awaaaaaayyy. I'm sure this post'll tick a few diehard GM fans off. Don't blame me, i'm Just stating facts
. Just like Brandon.
Since Fords problems are being put to the tables and recent recalls aside, here are some studies based on long term durability. Look at where the core GM cars rank and look at the Fords.
2002 Consumer Reports Annual Auto Issue
Reliability, Full Size Trucks
1) Toyota Tundra: 40% MORE RELIABLE than Average
2) Ford F-150: 15% MORE RELIABLE than Average
3) Chevy/GMC 1500 2WD: 30% LESS RELIABLE than Average
4) Chevy/GMC 1500 4WD: 50% LESS RELIABLE than Average
i'll have to say that their vehicles are about average. Atleast based on J.D. Powers multiple long term durability tests which have put Ford above Industry average and ahead of SAAB and NISSAN as well as a handful of other cars that placed below industry average, and Consumer Reports which puts them at about average. Compare them to the other big 2, you'd see that they've done better.
Each of the dependability tests take place over a 5 year period. So from 1994-2001
2001 Vehicle dependability study
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrel...ID=585&CatID=1
2000 Vehicle dependability study
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrel...ID=486&CatID=1
1st 5 year study was published 1999. Vehicle dependability study dating back to 94.
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrel...ID=292&CatID=1
Consumer reports Best & Worst Used cars or cars to Avoid.
LINK TOO LONG SO CLICK HERE
AND THERE ARE MORE. Much more. I'll gladly post more studies that'll point to this. I'll even quote and post the News article (if i could find it) that talked about how GM passed FORD in quality for the very 1st time. Care to count the number of year both corporations have existed? While we're at it, anyone care to compare the TSB's for the f-bods and the mustangs year to year or between trucks or similar cars? Chevy to Ford?
Conclusion: GM is no better. We can yap and put Ford quality down when GM really isn't better. You want to put ford quality down? get an import so you'll have room to speak.
Darth Xed, Good point. But I'll reserve my judgement on the new cobras quality when several cars owned by customers show signs of serious problems. So far, there have been none. It may be too early. If ford is able to catch something on the assembly line and fix it before it reaches customers, then i don't see what the big fuss is about. We don't even know what the issue is so it's everything for the time being is based off speculation. Again, we don't even know what the issue is or what it concerns.
I'm done ranting
, flame awaaaaaayyy. I'm sure this post'll tick a few diehard GM fans off. Don't blame me, i'm Just stating facts. Just like Brandon.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
JD power surveys are neevr all that great. I mean the primary detracter on the Camaor's ratings for years was buyers felt it should have "more power".
Show me something that shows GM has recalled more cars than Ford
Show me something that shows GM has recalled more cars than Ford
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
Originally posted by formula79
JD power surveys are neevr all that great. I mean the primary detracter on the Camaor's ratings for years was buyers felt it should have "more power".
JD power surveys are neevr all that great. I mean the primary detracter on the Camaor's ratings for years was buyers felt it should have "more power".
Originally posted by formula79
Show me something that shows GM has recalled more cars than Ford
Show me something that shows GM has recalled more cars than Ford
. I'm not saying Ford is better now, nor am i trying ignoring their recent blunders, just that GM quality isn't something to be proud about either. The big 3 are in the same boat and have been for some time now.
A domestic hater ones told me, "Americans should demand more from their car companies". I fully agree.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,873
From: South Jersey
Another pissing match...
After looking around for about 5 minutes at Recent GM recalls I realized that some of the Ford Bashers need to climb down of their high horse...
They aren't the only ones with quality issues. And look, Botched launches of new products and recalls of their flagship! What?!
http://cartalk.cars.com/Got-A-Car/Pr...m-recalls.html
GM Recalls 2002 Bravada, Envoy and TrailBlazer
DAYTON, Ohio - General Motors plans to recall 6,000 sport utility vehicles because of a safety concern over a suspension part and temporarily idle the plant that produces the vehicles, the automaker said Thursday. GM spokesman Mike Morrissey said GM is asking customers who bought the 2002 Chevrolet Trailblazer, 2002 GMC Envoy or 2002 Oldsmobile Bravada to stop driving the vehicles immediately.
----------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_recall.html
General Motors is recalling about 1.9 million 1995-97 Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire and 1996-97 Buick Skylark, Pontiac Grand Am, and Oldsmobile Achieva models. the company said a faulty ignition switch could cause a fire in the steering column.
------------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_bags.html
August 19, 2002General Motors is recalling about 720,000 vehicles to fix two problems airbag problems that could cause the bags to malfunction in a crash.
---------------------------------------------
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/nhtsa2500.htm
General Motors Corporation
Models: Chevrolet Corvette Years: 1997-2000
Number Involved: 71,569
General Motors Corporation
Models: Buick Park Avenue Years: 1997-1998
Number Involved: 77,952
---------------------------------------------
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020111-2.htm
GM recalls 78,000 GMC Envoy and Chevrolet Trailblazer models
They aren't the only ones with quality issues. And look, Botched launches of new products and recalls of their flagship! What?!
http://cartalk.cars.com/Got-A-Car/Pr...m-recalls.html
GM Recalls 2002 Bravada, Envoy and TrailBlazer
DAYTON, Ohio - General Motors plans to recall 6,000 sport utility vehicles because of a safety concern over a suspension part and temporarily idle the plant that produces the vehicles, the automaker said Thursday. GM spokesman Mike Morrissey said GM is asking customers who bought the 2002 Chevrolet Trailblazer, 2002 GMC Envoy or 2002 Oldsmobile Bravada to stop driving the vehicles immediately.
----------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_recall.html
General Motors is recalling about 1.9 million 1995-97 Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire and 1996-97 Buick Skylark, Pontiac Grand Am, and Oldsmobile Achieva models. the company said a faulty ignition switch could cause a fire in the steering column.
------------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_bags.html
August 19, 2002General Motors is recalling about 720,000 vehicles to fix two problems airbag problems that could cause the bags to malfunction in a crash.
---------------------------------------------
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/nhtsa2500.htm
General Motors Corporation
Models: Chevrolet Corvette Years: 1997-2000
Number Involved: 71,569
General Motors Corporation
Models: Buick Park Avenue Years: 1997-1998
Number Involved: 77,952
---------------------------------------------
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020111-2.htm
GM recalls 78,000 GMC Envoy and Chevrolet Trailblazer models
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Re: Another pissing match...
Originally posted by WERM
After looking around for about 5 minutes at Recent GM recalls I realized that some of the Ford Bashers need to climb down of their high horse...
They aren't the only ones with quality issues. And look, Botched launches of new products and recalls of their flagship! What?!
http://cartalk.cars.com/Got-A-Car/Pr...m-recalls.html
GM Recalls 2002 Bravada, Envoy and TrailBlazer
DAYTON, Ohio - General Motors plans to recall 6,000 sport utility vehicles because of a safety concern over a suspension part and temporarily idle the plant that produces the vehicles, the automaker said Thursday. GM spokesman Mike Morrissey said GM is asking customers who bought the 2002 Chevrolet Trailblazer, 2002 GMC Envoy or 2002 Oldsmobile Bravada to stop driving the vehicles immediately.
----------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_recall.html
General Motors is recalling about 1.9 million 1995-97 Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire and 1996-97 Buick Skylark, Pontiac Grand Am, and Oldsmobile Achieva models. the company said a faulty ignition switch could cause a fire in the steering column.
------------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_bags.html
August 19, 2002General Motors is recalling about 720,000 vehicles to fix two problems airbag problems that could cause the bags to malfunction in a crash.
---------------------------------------------
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/nhtsa2500.htm
General Motors Corporation
Models: Chevrolet Corvette Years: 1997-2000
Number Involved: 71,569
General Motors Corporation
Models: Buick Park Avenue Years: 1997-1998
Number Involved: 77,952
---------------------------------------------
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020111-2.htm
GM recalls 78,000 GMC Envoy and Chevrolet Trailblazer models
After looking around for about 5 minutes at Recent GM recalls I realized that some of the Ford Bashers need to climb down of their high horse...
They aren't the only ones with quality issues. And look, Botched launches of new products and recalls of their flagship! What?!
http://cartalk.cars.com/Got-A-Car/Pr...m-recalls.html
GM Recalls 2002 Bravada, Envoy and TrailBlazer
DAYTON, Ohio - General Motors plans to recall 6,000 sport utility vehicles because of a safety concern over a suspension part and temporarily idle the plant that produces the vehicles, the automaker said Thursday. GM spokesman Mike Morrissey said GM is asking customers who bought the 2002 Chevrolet Trailblazer, 2002 GMC Envoy or 2002 Oldsmobile Bravada to stop driving the vehicles immediately.
----------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_recall.html
General Motors is recalling about 1.9 million 1995-97 Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire and 1996-97 Buick Skylark, Pontiac Grand Am, and Oldsmobile Achieva models. the company said a faulty ignition switch could cause a fire in the steering column.
------------------------------------------
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/gm_bags.html
August 19, 2002General Motors is recalling about 720,000 vehicles to fix two problems airbag problems that could cause the bags to malfunction in a crash.
---------------------------------------------
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/nhtsa2500.htm
General Motors Corporation
Models: Chevrolet Corvette Years: 1997-2000
Number Involved: 71,569
General Motors Corporation
Models: Buick Park Avenue Years: 1997-1998
Number Involved: 77,952
---------------------------------------------
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020111-2.htm
GM recalls 78,000 GMC Envoy and Chevrolet Trailblazer models
Registered User
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,610
From: Cincinnati, OH
Regardless of who the hell has more recalls, that many recalls from eiter company is kinda sad. RiceEating has the idea when he says we should demand more. But can the big 3 step up to the plate with improved quality while maintaining competitive prices?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
bingo...
Originally posted by Chuck!
Regardless of who the hell has more recalls, that many recalls from eiter company is kinda sad. RiceEating has the idea when he says we should demand more. But can the big 3 step up to the plate with improved quality while maintaining competitive prices?
Regardless of who the hell has more recalls, that many recalls from eiter company is kinda sad. RiceEating has the idea when he says we should demand more. But can the big 3 step up to the plate with improved quality while maintaining competitive prices?
Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
Conclusion: GM is no better. We can yap and put Ford quality down when GM really isn't better. You want to put ford quality down? get an import so you'll have room to speak.[/B]
Conclusion: GM is no better. We can yap and put Ford quality down when GM really isn't better. You want to put ford quality down? get an import so you'll have room to speak.[/B]
Awesome job stating facts RiceEating5.0 - not opinion or biased-source data.
Branden, does it really matter if most Camaro complaints were for "more power"? Mustang was subject to the same criteria and the cars were all judged equally. JDP and CR are both pretty unbiased parties and refuse corporate sponsoring to prove their neutrality. Do you see any banner ads or pop-ups when you download the JDP links?
Chuck!, WERM, RiceEating5.0 - you guys are spot-on with this type of mentality, count me in.
There are really 2 main points that I hold above all else in car-land...
1)It should be domestic designed/built if you buy it here.
2)You can't buy a perfect new car for $1.
As far as quality goes, we have the technology to make perfect cars with gobs of power, perfect fit/finish, quiet, get 100+ mpg, etc, etc - but nobody could afford them!!! We are all after the cheapest thing we can get - relatively speaking. Trying to make a Camaro or Mustang as cheap as possible is going to lead to shortcomings - there is no way around it. While this is not a license to make shi++y cars, we ourselves are largely to blame for them making cars designed on 100K mile/4-year obsolescence the way they do. It's getting better, but...
So where does anyone get-off ripping Ford a new **** for having a problem? NO, it shouldn't happen, I agree. But have you never made a mistake? Like stated, we don't even know what the problem really was (it is resolved now BTW). It may have had to do with an externally supplied part that Ford had no indication was defective for all we know. In a JIT process, if you get a defective part from a supplier, you shut down - PERIOD. There are clauses in supplier contracts that call for financial reimbursement from the supplier if their product causes a line shutdown. Like GM or anybody else never had a problem with vendors? Personally, I think it is a shame it happened, but I give Ford credit for stopping and fixing the problems. Let's be real, they didn't stop the whole Mustang line for Pete's sake, the regular cars and even the Mach 1's are still rolling off - they just stopped Cobra production, and that is limited anyhow! 2 of the 3 scheduled production runs will still be complete by the end of the year, and they have said that overall production will still conclude on schedule - so where's the harm? GIMME A FRIGGIN' BREAK!
I have said before that I personally will never own a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, or anything vaguely resembling these lines. I will be the first to admit that Honda has a better overall car in terms of quality-of-build, etc. - but I feel that it is my "duty" to buy American (POS's or not) and MAKE THE MANUFACTURER DELIVER. If the car I buy never has a problem - GREAT - they have delivered as they should have and I have supported the cause. If the vehicle has probs, and it means taking it back for warranty repairs a few times on their penny, so be it. If it means getting ripe on a service manager once in a while, so be it. If it means camping out on the dealer's door step talking to potential buyers, so be it. Calling a regional sales office, getting a corporate rep to come to my home, whatever. I will hold my head high and say that I have done everything I can do to help make the American carbuilder get better. I WILL NOT have the disgrace of standing up to say, "our Domestic builders are making sh1+, so I jumped-ship and bought foreign". Sweet serving of Bendict Arnold for anyone?
To me this is not a GM or Ford thing at all. It is a domestic vs. import thing if it is anything because that is where the issue of quality and durability is the biggest. You know, it's just goofy that we even have a debate like this going on between GM and Ford guys - we are both losing to imports, so does it really matter? We both need to improve, just like RiceEating5.0 pointed out.
MY OPINION - It takes Big Brass ***** to come to a brand-loyal board and makes posts like RiceEating5.0, Werm, Chuck!, and now myself have done. That deserves respect, even if you don't agree. I have heard nobody claim Ford is perfect , just that GM is not perfect either. I agree with them.
Lastly, I can't recall any other car getting the hype and the scrutiny that this 2003 Cobra is getting - EVER. This car has been in every magazine, on every website, on every board I have seen. It has been compared to Vettes and Vipers, Camaros and Firebirds, even Porsches and B-mers. It is on TV, the radio, etc. and none of what I am speaking of is paid advertising by Ford - it is press-hype. I think the car is being unfairly held to microscopic investigation and universal expectations. This very thread has demostrated just such acts.
If this car gets through all these "trials" by coffee-table experts and internet gearheads, and proves itself to be the reliable street performer that it claims to be, it will earn instant legendary status. It damn-well deserves it too. And the more people try to belittle or discredit it, the bigger the legend will become.
So whine-on if you like. (Anybody recall the Lightning intro?!?! Look at it then and now, but note the Cobra is getting even more hype than the Lightning!)
Not intended to flame anybody here at all - either side - but after this little "stoppage" fiasco has gone so ballistic, I really hope this Cobra comes out and kicks-mortal-a$$, quality, performance, customer satisfaction, imports, domestic, alien, whatever!
Last edited by ProudPony; Nov 1, 2002 at 10:36 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
I have to chime in here...
OK, I know others have posted stuff too, so some of this is not directed at my posts, but I feel kind of lumped into the "GM Fan" side so... In my posts, I never said that GM was mistake-proof, and called all Ford's POS.
My point was, with Ford's recent history of failings and quality issues, people have a right to be concerned, no matter what manufacturer they are partial too...
The funny thing about the "Ford Guys" is that as soon as anyone says anything about Ford quality, the first thing out of their mouths is "Well... GM's quality isn't that good either!!!" And then bring up bias and all that.
The fact is GM's quality, whether it is better than , equal to , or worse than that of Ford, has no bearing at all on the fact that Ford quality is a major concern right now.
How about the Ford guys stepping up to the plate and saying there are legitimate concerns right now?!
At least in my case, I am saying that Ford, especially now, after all their other bad press recently, should have a tighter grip on this kind of stuff!
OK, I know others have posted stuff too, so some of this is not directed at my posts, but I feel kind of lumped into the "GM Fan" side so... In my posts, I never said that GM was mistake-proof, and called all Ford's POS.
My point was, with Ford's recent history of failings and quality issues, people have a right to be concerned, no matter what manufacturer they are partial too...
The funny thing about the "Ford Guys" is that as soon as anyone says anything about Ford quality, the first thing out of their mouths is "Well... GM's quality isn't that good either!!!" And then bring up bias and all that.
The fact is GM's quality, whether it is better than , equal to , or worse than that of Ford, has no bearing at all on the fact that Ford quality is a major concern right now.
How about the Ford guys stepping up to the plate and saying there are legitimate concerns right now?!
At least in my case, I am saying that Ford, especially now, after all their other bad press recently, should have a tighter grip on this kind of stuff!
Last edited by Darth Xed; Nov 1, 2002 at 11:12 AM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Re: bingo...
Originally posted by ProudPony
MY OPINION - It takes Big Brass ***** to come to a brand-loyal board and makes posts like RiceEating5.0, Werm, Chuck!, and now myself have done. That deserves respect, even if you don't agree. I have heard nobody claim Ford is perfect , just that GM is not perfect either. I agree with them.
MY OPINION - It takes Big Brass ***** to come to a brand-loyal board and makes posts like RiceEating5.0, Werm, Chuck!, and now myself have done. That deserves respect, even if you don't agree. I have heard nobody claim Ford is perfect , just that GM is not perfect either. I agree with them.
Image is everything in the car industry and MY POINT IS:
Ford is ruining the reputation of many of it's newest models with botched launches and recalls. There are very few cars in GM's inventory that the public is aware of in terms of having quality issues..however many of Fords's bread and butter lines are under the public eye. The Focus may be a great car now, but all the public remembers is that it took 8 recalls to get there. It is not good for Ford to have in the new how cops are burning to death because they still insist on leaving the gas tank behind the axle. I understand that the media overdramatizes things..but tehy got in trouble because of the Pinto over 20 years ago Ford that. It is an embarassment to Ford that it is still an issue for Mustang and Panther cars...no matter how blown out of proportion it is.
The fact of the matter is other car companies may have recalls and botched launches..but with Fords recent mistakes in the media so much...they simply can not afford too...yet they still do.
The only way the press will leave them alone is if they don't make mistates...if they continue to..I think thier bussinesses long term survival may be threatened.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by RiceEating5.0
One thing about the Crown Vic, the NHTSA ended their investigation and came to the conclusion that they are no more dangerous then the Caprice cruisers and that they are infact safe cars.
One thing about the Crown Vic, the NHTSA ended their investigation and came to the conclusion that they are no more dangerous then the Caprice cruisers and that they are infact safe cars.
If anyone was truly concerned about this (beyond creating hysteria), then maybe they should start looking at what happens to smaller cars in the same situation.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by Darth Xed
The fact is GM's quality, whether it is better than , equal to , or worse than that of Ford, has no bearing at all on the fact that Ford quality is a major concern right now.
How about the Ford guys stepping up to the plate and saying there are legitimate concerns right now?!
At least in my case, I am saying that Ford, especially now, after all their other bad press recently, should have a tighter grip on this kind of stuff!
The fact is GM's quality, whether it is better than , equal to , or worse than that of Ford, has no bearing at all on the fact that Ford quality is a major concern right now.
How about the Ford guys stepping up to the plate and saying there are legitimate concerns right now?!
At least in my case, I am saying that Ford, especially now, after all their other bad press recently, should have a tighter grip on this kind of stuff!
If I am the first, then so be it. Here goes...
Ford DOES have some legitimate concerns right now.
Given the recent Firestone debacle, the OLD PROBLEM with the '98 Mustang gas tanks, and the Crown Vic publicity (deserved or not), Ford should be trying to do all it can to keep things sparkling and shiny right now. Your point is well made and well taken. I don't think we want it any other way anyhow.
Now it's your turn. All we are asking for is that the "opposition" realizes that as far as the everyday, run of the mill problems, Ford doesn't have any more issues than anybody else - GM included. In fact Ford's reliability may even be better than industry average. So how about just a little slack on this side... At least Ford is taking the risk of offering a very high-performance RWD V8 car with new engine technology - the driveline in this car is essentially all-new in production. It's not like a cat or O2 problem is gonna make the car a total flop, but guys in this forum and elsewhere act like it's a dead-turd now.
Whaddayasay?
