"The Judge" is back at GM...
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
The 1969 GTO "Judge" was planned as a stripped down GTO intended to compete with the new Plymouth Roadrunner which became the best selling "muscle car" due to a low price & no frills (GTOs had become very expensive by 1968). It was initially to be called the Pontiac GTO E/T as in quarter mile.
It was to have a bench seat, no hood scoops, rally wheels w/o trim rings, and a 350 ci V8 with 400 heads. Though it doesn't sound like much, this car outran 383 Roadrunners in tests at GM.
Pontiac General Manager John Delorean killed the project by insisting that all GTOs had a 400, and all the trimmings. This turned the GTO Judge into the most expensive GTOs ever produced. The rally wheels remained, though.
The irony is that the GTO Judge was actually SLOWER than a regular GTO with the same engine (GTO Judge had the same engines that were available on regular GTOs).
In it's best year (1969) less than 10% of all GTOs sold were "Judges", 6800 out of 72,000 cars. The following year it was just 3600 of 40,000. In 1971 only about 375 "Judges" of 10,500 GTOs were sold before Pontiac pulled the plug on the car January 1971.
The "Judge" was the ultimate GTO only as far as being loaded with options as standard equptment, and having outreagous paint colors & decals. It wasn't the fastest or meanest GTO, and even the rear spoiler could be had on other GTOs.
There are already a bunch of "so called" GTO enthusiasts slamming the new GTO, Pontiac Motor Division, and all of General Motors, especially Bob Lutz, over a bizzare belief the GTOs were somehow styled different from the rest of the Pontiac line. One can only imagine how rediculous some of them will get when or if GM brings out a GTO 'Judge' true to the original.
http://www.gmfleet.com/us/about/news...3_history.html
http://www.gtoalley.com/judge.html
It was to have a bench seat, no hood scoops, rally wheels w/o trim rings, and a 350 ci V8 with 400 heads. Though it doesn't sound like much, this car outran 383 Roadrunners in tests at GM.
Pontiac General Manager John Delorean killed the project by insisting that all GTOs had a 400, and all the trimmings. This turned the GTO Judge into the most expensive GTOs ever produced. The rally wheels remained, though.
The irony is that the GTO Judge was actually SLOWER than a regular GTO with the same engine (GTO Judge had the same engines that were available on regular GTOs).
In it's best year (1969) less than 10% of all GTOs sold were "Judges", 6800 out of 72,000 cars. The following year it was just 3600 of 40,000. In 1971 only about 375 "Judges" of 10,500 GTOs were sold before Pontiac pulled the plug on the car January 1971.
The "Judge" was the ultimate GTO only as far as being loaded with options as standard equptment, and having outreagous paint colors & decals. It wasn't the fastest or meanest GTO, and even the rear spoiler could be had on other GTOs.
There are already a bunch of "so called" GTO enthusiasts slamming the new GTO, Pontiac Motor Division, and all of General Motors, especially Bob Lutz, over a bizzare belief the GTOs were somehow styled different from the rest of the Pontiac line. One can only imagine how rediculous some of them will get when or if GM brings out a GTO 'Judge' true to the original.
http://www.gmfleet.com/us/about/news...3_history.html
http://www.gtoalley.com/judge.html
Registered User
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,610
From: Cincinnati, OH
Originally posted by Darth Xed
I am hoping for a mid-level model called "The Bailiff" .
I am hoping for a mid-level model called "The Bailiff" .
Although going with what guion said, a new GTO E/T would be kinda cool sounding had it not been for that 80's movie.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
To me, the Judge moniker does not fit this car. Naming a car "Judge" doesn't make any sense. Then again, I guess GXP doesn't do much for me, either 
But at least in 1969, there was a reason why. Now? Its a 35 year old term that anyone but a true GTO guy won't get. So why bother?
But at least in 1969, there was a reason why. Now? Its a 35 year old term that anyone but a true GTO guy won't get. So why bother?
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
This is not so much about GM wanting to call the hi-pro GTO "The Judge". It is more GM feels that the "Judge" name is their property when used in regard with the Pontiac GTO. It is more a ploy to stop SLP from using the name (or not paying to use the name), GM may not use the Judge name on the high pro GTO, but they at least want the option if they do...and compensation if they don't and someone else does.
2010 Camaro Moderator/Disciple
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,087
From: Chester, NY
Originally posted by formula79
This is not so much about GM wanting to call the hi-pro GTO "The Judge". It is more GM feels that the "Judge" name is their property when used in regard with the Pontiac GTO. It is more a ploy to stop SLP from using the name (or not paying to use the name), GM may not use the Judge name on the high pro GTO, but they at least want the option if they do...and compensation if they don't and someone else does.
This is not so much about GM wanting to call the hi-pro GTO "The Judge". It is more GM feels that the "Judge" name is their property when used in regard with the Pontiac GTO. It is more a ploy to stop SLP from using the name (or not paying to use the name), GM may not use the Judge name on the high pro GTO, but they at least want the option if they do...and compensation if they don't and someone else does.
Bottom line, SLP still has their trademarks. You cant blame SLP for applying for them. It's a smart business move on their behalf. Shame on GM for not doing their homework. Their lawyers dropped the ball if they indeed intended to use the brand name themselves.
SLP has these...
Word Mark THE JUDGE
Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: automobiles
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 78121405
Filing Date April 12, 2002
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition October 22, 2002
Owner (APPLICANT) SLP Automotive Group, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1465 Axtel Road Troy MICHIGAN 48084
Attorney of Record Oliver E. Todd, Jr.
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
Word Mark HERE COME DA JUDGE
Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: automobiles
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76447234
Filing Date September 6, 2002
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition May 6, 2003
Owner (APPLICANT) SLP Automotive Group, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1465 Axtell Road Troy MICHIGAN 48084
Attorney of Record Scott A. Blake
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
GM applied for these AFTER they found out about the above SLP trademarks.
Word Mark THE JUDGE
Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: Parts, restoration parts, and accessories for motor land vehicles, namely, fender covers, shift ***** and badges, namely interior and exterior trim badges. FIRST USE: 19920701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920701
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78331219
Filing Date November 21, 2003
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Owner (APPLICANT) General Motors Corporation CORPORATION DELAWARE 300 Renaissance Center P.O. Box 300 Detroit MICHIGAN 482653000
Attorney of Record Charles H. Ellerbrock
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
Word Mark THE JUDGE
Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: Parts, restoration parts, and accessories for motor land vehicles, namely, fender covers, shift ***** and badges. FIRST USE: 19920701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920701
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78324116
Filing Date November 6, 2003
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Owner (APPLICANT) General Motors Corporation CORPORATION DELAWARE 300 Renaissance Center P.O. Box 300 Detroit MICHIGAN 482653000
Attorney of Record Charles H. Ellerbrock
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 124
From: Milwaukee, WI
Originally posted by guionM
The 1969 GTO "Judge" was planned as a stripped down GTO intended to compete with the new Plymouth Roadrunner which became the best selling "muscle car" due to a low price & no frills (GTOs had become very expensive by 1968). It was initially to be called the Pontiac GTO E/T as in quarter mile.
........
The "Judge" was the ultimate GTO only as far as being loaded with options as standard equptment, and having outreagous paint colors & decals. It wasn't the fastest or meanest GTO, and even the rear spoiler could be had on other GTOs.
The 1969 GTO "Judge" was planned as a stripped down GTO intended to compete with the new Plymouth Roadrunner which became the best selling "muscle car" due to a low price & no frills (GTOs had become very expensive by 1968). It was initially to be called the Pontiac GTO E/T as in quarter mile.
........
The "Judge" was the ultimate GTO only as far as being loaded with options as standard equptment, and having outreagous paint colors & decals. It wasn't the fastest or meanest GTO, and even the rear spoiler could be had on other GTOs.
I just disagree with one point. 
While it is "technically" true that the Judge was not any faster than a GTO with EXACTLY the same options, what made the Judge special was the same thing that made the GTO special when it debuted in 1964....The concept of a "pre-packaged" muscle car. Remember, in the sixties one could order cars virtually any way they wanted to...One person could walk into a showroom and order a 1964 impala with a 283 and a four speed on the floor, 2.73 rear end with bench seats and dog-dish hubcaps and that could be a "muscle car" in that person's mind. While another person could walk in and order a 1964 impala with bucket seats, muncie four speed, a big-block 409 with dual-quads and a 3.90 rear end...And that would be the second person's "concept" of a muscle car...WHICH ONE WAS CORRECT?
The gto took all the guesswork out, you ordered a GTO and you had a muscle car....END OF DISCUSSION! It came optioned one way...FAST!
The same holds true about the judge option...The standard engine on the Judge was a RAM-AIR III engine with the drivetrain to back it up...The more rare option on the Judge was the evil RAM AIR IV engine with standard M-21 4 speed and 3.90 or higher rear end.
While it is true that these powertrain combos could be ordered on the standard GTO, most people optioned to stick with the "bread & butter" 400 H.O. engine (NON RAM-AIR) and their favorite tranny choice....You had to know exactly what options worked well together if you wanted to order these on a standard GTO...
That being said, things are certainly different now, our options are limited for powertrain combos, but I still think the Judge moniker would be great to bring back to a vehicle the (performance-wise) lives up to it's great heritage.
I can see a 410 H.P. LS-6 RAM AIR VI judge pounding the streets in the future!
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by formula79
This is not so much about GM wanting to call the hi-pro GTO "The Judge". It is more GM feels that the "Judge" name is their property when used in regard with the Pontiac GTO. It is more a ploy to stop SLP from using the name (or not paying to use the name), GM may not use the Judge name on the high pro GTO, but they at least want the option if they do...and compensation if they don't and someone else does.
This is not so much about GM wanting to call the hi-pro GTO "The Judge". It is more GM feels that the "Judge" name is their property when used in regard with the Pontiac GTO. It is more a ploy to stop SLP from using the name (or not paying to use the name), GM may not use the Judge name on the high pro GTO, but they at least want the option if they do...and compensation if they don't and someone else does.
Originally posted by GOATCRAZY
Excellent history, I just disagree with one point.
While it is "technically" true that the Judge was not any faster than a GTO with EXACTLY the same options, what made the Judge special was the same thing that made the GTO special when it debuted in 1964....The concept of a "pre-packaged" muscle car. Remember, in the sixties one could order cars virtually any way they wanted to...One person could walk into a showroom and order a 1964 impala with a 283 and a four speed on the floor, 2.73 rear end with bench seats and dog-dish hubcaps and that could be a "muscle car" in that person's mind. While another person could walk in and order a 1964 impala with bucket seats, muncie four speed, a big-block 409 with dual-quads and a 3.90 rear end...And that would be the second person's "concept" of a muscle car...WHICH ONE WAS CORRECT?
The gto took all the guesswork out, you ordered a GTO and you had a muscle car....END OF DISCUSSION! It came optioned one way...FAST!
The same holds true about the judge option...The standard engine on the Judge was a RAM-AIR III engine with the drivetrain to back it up...The more rare option on the Judge was the evil RAM AIR IV engine with standard M-21 4 speed and 3.90 or higher rear end.
While it is true that these powertrain combos could be ordered on the standard GTO, most people optioned to stick with the "bread & butter" 400 H.O. engine (NON RAM-AIR) and their favorite tranny choice....You had to know exactly what options worked well together if you wanted to order these on a standard GTO...
That being said, things are certainly different now, our options are limited for powertrain combos, but I still think the Judge moniker would be great to bring back to a vehicle the (performance-wise) lives up to it's great heritage.
I can see a 410 H.P. LS-6 RAM AIR VI judge pounding the streets in the future!
Excellent history,
I just disagree with one point. While it is "technically" true that the Judge was not any faster than a GTO with EXACTLY the same options, what made the Judge special was the same thing that made the GTO special when it debuted in 1964....The concept of a "pre-packaged" muscle car. Remember, in the sixties one could order cars virtually any way they wanted to...One person could walk into a showroom and order a 1964 impala with a 283 and a four speed on the floor, 2.73 rear end with bench seats and dog-dish hubcaps and that could be a "muscle car" in that person's mind. While another person could walk in and order a 1964 impala with bucket seats, muncie four speed, a big-block 409 with dual-quads and a 3.90 rear end...And that would be the second person's "concept" of a muscle car...WHICH ONE WAS CORRECT?
The gto took all the guesswork out, you ordered a GTO and you had a muscle car....END OF DISCUSSION! It came optioned one way...FAST!
The same holds true about the judge option...The standard engine on the Judge was a RAM-AIR III engine with the drivetrain to back it up...The more rare option on the Judge was the evil RAM AIR IV engine with standard M-21 4 speed and 3.90 or higher rear end.
While it is true that these powertrain combos could be ordered on the standard GTO, most people optioned to stick with the "bread & butter" 400 H.O. engine (NON RAM-AIR) and their favorite tranny choice....You had to know exactly what options worked well together if you wanted to order these on a standard GTO...
That being said, things are certainly different now, our options are limited for powertrain combos, but I still think the Judge moniker would be great to bring back to a vehicle the (performance-wise) lives up to it's great heritage.
I can see a 410 H.P. LS-6 RAM AIR VI judge pounding the streets in the future!
But GTO was also a "piecemeal" car. GTO was initially an engine package, and it's magic is that it was the 1st intermediate sized car that had a "Big" engine. That changed when GTO became it's "own" model, in 1967 I believe. But it still had a pretty long option list. When you ordered the GTO "Judge" in 1969, you had a complete package... and a complete price to go along with it.
Last edited by guionM; Jan 20, 2004 at 03:03 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 59
Originally posted by Jason E
To me, the Judge moniker does not fit this car. Naming a car "Judge" doesn't make any sense. Then again, I guess GXP doesn't do much for me, either
But at least in 1969, there was a reason why. Now? Its a 35 year old term that anyone but a true GTO guy won't get. So why bother?
To me, the Judge moniker does not fit this car. Naming a car "Judge" doesn't make any sense. Then again, I guess GXP doesn't do much for me, either
But at least in 1969, there was a reason why. Now? Its a 35 year old term that anyone but a true GTO guy won't get. So why bother?
Maybe they should name it after a character on TV today. Since stupid reality TV is so popular,how about "The Simon Cowell"?
2010 Camaro Moderator/Disciple
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,087
From: Chester, NY
Originally posted by Richard Cabeza
Good point. I doubt anyone ever remembers "Laugh In' itself,nevermind "here come da judge". It's been off the air for what,30something years?
Good point. I doubt anyone ever remembers "Laugh In' itself,nevermind "here come da judge". It's been off the air for what,30something years?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 917
From: Lexington, KY
Sometimes I wonder if automakers should even bother with bringing back a car name at all. No matter what, it is going to get bashed by some hater. I personally love the new GTO and what its potential is over the next few years. I think some people would have rather seen a pathetic attempt at a retro design (read new Mustang).
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 543
From: GA
Originally posted by GOATCRAZY
Excellent history, I just disagree with one point.
Remember, in the sixties one could order cars virtually any way they wanted to...One person could walk into a showroom and order a 1964 impala with a 283 and a four speed on the floor, 2.73 rear end with bench seats and dog-dish hubcaps and that could be a "muscle car" in that person's mind. While another person could walk in and order a 1964 impala with bucket seats, muncie four speed, a big-block 409 with dual-quads and a 3.90 rear end...And that would be the second person's "concept" of a muscle car...WHICH ONE WAS CORRECT?
Excellent history,
I just disagree with one point. Remember, in the sixties one could order cars virtually any way they wanted to...One person could walk into a showroom and order a 1964 impala with a 283 and a four speed on the floor, 2.73 rear end with bench seats and dog-dish hubcaps and that could be a "muscle car" in that person's mind. While another person could walk in and order a 1964 impala with bucket seats, muncie four speed, a big-block 409 with dual-quads and a 3.90 rear end...And that would be the second person's "concept" of a muscle car...WHICH ONE WAS CORRECT?
In 1964, the passenger car 283 was not available with the 4 speed transmission. Powerglide or 3 speed manual, column shifted only. Axle ratios were: 3.08, 3.36, 3.55, 3.70, 4.11.To get the bucket seats and console, the super sport option had to be ordered.
sorry for being so picky, but, um,....check my user name
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 220
From: TN
Originally posted by Richard Cabeza
Good point. I doubt anyone ever remembers "Laugh In' itself,nevermind "here come da judge". It's been off the air for what,30something years?
Maybe they should name it after a character on TV today. Since stupid reality TV is so popular,how about "The Simon Cowell"?
Good point. I doubt anyone ever remembers "Laugh In' itself,nevermind "here come da judge". It's been off the air for what,30something years?
Maybe they should name it after a character on TV today. Since stupid reality TV is so popular,how about "The Simon Cowell"?
