It's Official: 2011 Ford Mustang GT has 5.0-liter V8
01-05-2010, 02:52 PM
#256
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Surely 
The 2011 GT in its 'fuel efficient'/lowest possible gears mode, will turn heads, what do you think the 'track packed/ohhh i want those checkboxes' version will do
It will surprise a LOT of people... and that's before mods.
This is going to be an interesting tennis match if GM lets them play.
The 2011 GT in its 'fuel efficient'/lowest possible gears mode, will turn heads, what do you think the 'track packed/ohhh i want those checkboxes' version will do
It will surprise a LOT of people... and that's before mods.
This is going to be an interesting tennis match if GM lets them play.
01-05-2010, 03:41 PM
#257
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As far as modifying new cars, again, it doesn't happen outside the professional racers market unless we're talking rich folks who can spare the loss or the griping and bitching group that post on sites that simply don't understand how their warranties were voided simply because they did this or that "minor" tweak.... the group I call "Genuine Morons".
Throwing a exhaust kit, or tweaking a 2 year old car that is worth half or less of the value it was when new is a far cry from walking into a showroom, buying a $32,000-38,000 Camaro SS, paying 600+ per month for 6 years, and almost half again that much in insurence and showing a real willingness to void the warranty 30 ways to Sunday by opening the engine or screwing with the engine computer.
If you know a "bunch" of people who do that (void warranties of brand new cars), then you either roll in more financially well off circles than us mere mortals, or they're not a group of people you should want to be associated with.
Throwing a exhaust kit, or tweaking a 2 year old car that is worth half or less of the value it was when new is a far cry from walking into a showroom, buying a $32,000-38,000 Camaro SS, paying 600+ per month for 6 years, and almost half again that much in insurence and showing a real willingness to void the warranty 30 ways to Sunday by opening the engine or screwing with the engine computer.
If you know a "bunch" of people who do that (void warranties of brand new cars), then you either roll in more financially well off circles than us mere mortals, or they're not a group of people you should want to be associated with.
the people that care the most about these performance numbers wont be keeping their cars stock. if you care that much to begin with why would you keep a car stock?
01-05-2010, 03:46 PM
#258
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Unless someone has proof GM is resting on their laurels, how can anyone assume there won't be any improvements in the 2011 Camaro lineup now that Ford has shown their cards?
01-05-2010, 04:03 PM
#259
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Mustang M6
Trans multiplied by rear gear = overall gearing (not accounting for tire height)
1st 3.66 * 3.31 = 12.11
2nd 2.43 * 3.31 = 8.04
3rd 1.69 * 3.31 = 5.59
4th 1.32 * 3.31 = 4.37
5th 1.00 * 3.31 = 3.31
6th 0.65 * 3.31 = 2.15
27.3" Tire (standard tire/wheel)
Camaro M6
1st 3.01 * 3.45 = 10.38
2nd 2.07 * 3.45 = 7.14
3rd 1.43 * 3.45 = 4.93
4th 1.00 * 3.45 = 3.45
5th 0.84 * 3.45 = 2.90
6th 0.57 * 3.45 = 1.97
28.7" Tires (standard tire/wheel)
Trans multiplied by rear gear = overall gearing (not accounting for tire height)
1st 3.66 * 3.31 = 12.11
2nd 2.43 * 3.31 = 8.04
3rd 1.69 * 3.31 = 5.59
4th 1.32 * 3.31 = 4.37
5th 1.00 * 3.31 = 3.31
6th 0.65 * 3.31 = 2.15
27.3" Tire (standard tire/wheel)
Camaro M6
1st 3.01 * 3.45 = 10.38
2nd 2.07 * 3.45 = 7.14
3rd 1.43 * 3.45 = 4.93
4th 1.00 * 3.45 = 3.45
5th 0.84 * 3.45 = 2.90
6th 0.57 * 3.45 = 1.97
28.7" Tires (standard tire/wheel)
Ford is using some low gears.
BTW, for all. Just as we do not know if GM is planning any improvements to the 2011 Camaro, we also do not really know what the track pack Mustang will do, or even, what it has. Thus, we know horsepower, weight, trans gearing, and standard rear gear. That is all.
It should be interesting.......... thats for sure.
01-05-2010, 04:14 PM
#260
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BTW, for all. Just as we do not know if GM is planning any improvements to the 2011 Camaro, we also do not really know what the track pack Mustang will do, or even, what it has. Thus, we know horsepower, weight, trans gearing, and standard rear gear. That is all.
It should be interesting.......... thats for sure.
It should be interesting.......... thats for sure.
01-05-2010, 04:54 PM
#261
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Saying the only thing holding Camaro back is gearing is pretty silly because it's what GM put into the car and what you can actually buy. One can say the only thing holding the Cobalt SS back is it isn't RWD, but the Cobalt is what it is and sold the way it's sold.
GM is selling Camaro with the gears it has for the reasons it had as do all automobile makers.
End of story.
GM is selling Camaro with the gears it has for the reasons it had as do all automobile makers.
End of story.
Take a look at the gear multiplications Bob posted above. The Camaro has closer gear spacing between 1st and 2nd and between 2nd and 3rd than the Mustang. However, it runs a larger tire and lower transmission gear ratios making its final power multiplaction lower than that of the Mustang even though it has a lower rear gear. Luckily for the Camaro, its LS3 has more torque to multiply in the first place.
I understanding gearing VERY well and I can tell you that it doesnt take a genius to look at the gear ratios above and realize how much the Camaro would benefit from a rear gear change alone. Especially considering it has some decent 275 series tires to hook up the power.
A Camaro Track Pack should consist of some suspension tunning to take away the understeer, 3.90 rear gears, and some nice wheels/tires with 295's outback.
I will bet you money that car would beat a 2011 Mustang GT Track Pack. Now go do it GM.
And as for your comparison to the Cobra, I like how you conveniently left out the tire size difference when talking gearing and also somehow forgot about the torque advantage the Cobra had.
Lets make this clear. The 03-04' Cobra ran a best of 12.4 stock. Do you think a 2011 Mustang GT with Track Pack will beat that time stock? How about a base 2011 Mustang GT on stock 235 series tires?
Thats as simple as it can be. Again, I will bet money it will not.
I think a Track Pack Camaro similar to what I described above could get close though.
01-05-2010, 05:02 PM
#262
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01-05-2010, 05:11 PM
#263
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Mustang M6
Trans multiplied by rear gear = overall gearing (not accounting for tire height)
1st 3.66 * 3.31 = 12.11
2nd 2.43 * 3.31 = 8.04
3rd 1.69 * 3.31 = 5.59
4th 1.32 * 3.31 = 4.37
5th 1.00 * 3.31 = 3.31
6th 0.65 * 3.31 = 2.15
27.3" Tire (standard tire/wheel)
Camaro M6
1st 3.01 * 3.45 = 10.38
2nd 2.07 * 3.45 = 7.14
3rd 1.43 * 3.45 = 4.93
4th 1.00 * 3.45 = 3.45
5th 0.84 * 3.45 = 2.90
6th 0.57 * 3.45 = 1.97
28.7" Tires (standard tire/wheel)
Trans multiplied by rear gear = overall gearing (not accounting for tire height)
1st 3.66 * 3.31 = 12.11
2nd 2.43 * 3.31 = 8.04
3rd 1.69 * 3.31 = 5.59
4th 1.32 * 3.31 = 4.37
5th 1.00 * 3.31 = 3.31
6th 0.65 * 3.31 = 2.15
27.3" Tire (standard tire/wheel)
Camaro M6
1st 3.01 * 3.45 = 10.38
2nd 2.07 * 3.45 = 7.14
3rd 1.43 * 3.45 = 4.93
4th 1.00 * 3.45 = 3.45
5th 0.84 * 3.45 = 2.90
6th 0.57 * 3.45 = 1.97
28.7" Tires (standard tire/wheel)
1st: 47
2nd: 71
3rd: 102
4th: 130
5th: 172
6th: 264
60 mph is 1600 rpm
80 mph is a hair over 2100 rpm
camaro with a 6600 rpm red line:
1st: 54
2nd: 79
3rd: 113
4th: 163
5th: 194
6th: 287
60 mph is a hair under 1400 rpm
80 mph is about 1850 rpm
taking in to account the difference in tire sizes the camaro would need a 4.00 rear gear ratio to have the same gearing as the mustang. thats a big difference in gearing.
edit:
the ford's gears are spread out almost identical to an LS1 car:
6000: 50 75 103 134 181 268
both cars could benefit from a lot more gear.
Last edited by Zigroid; 01-05-2010 at 05:14 PM.
01-05-2010, 05:15 PM
#264
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First, the taller tires in the camaro mean it has over 5% taller effective gearing.
Even more interesting though-
the camaro has a near even 70% drop in 1-4 (very similar ratios to the MN12 T56 as found in the C5 Z06, GTO and C6 Z51)
The mustang has a big 66% drop from 1-2 but 2 is still a low gear splitting the camaros 1/2.
2-3 is a 70% drop
3-4 is a tight 78% drop
4-5 is also a tight 76%
Those tight upper gear splits will help cover any deficiency in the power band since it won't be dropping too low. For example, shifting at 6500 RPMs, the mustang will only drop to about 5k on the 3-4-5 shifts vs. 4500 for the camaro.
Also interesting, with those tire sizes:
the mustang will shift into 4th at about 94mph with 5th not coming until 120. It's geared damn near perfectly for quarter mile racing as it comes stock. (just adding this as an edit that i forgot about the 7k redline of the new 5.0 until i saw it in the guy above who beat me. I was playing with a spreadsheet too long i guess)
3.73s will make it shift into 4th at 83 and 5th at 107. 4 shifts in the quarter mile. Bad news for the granny shifters, but could be nasty fun for the power shifters.
With stock gears, the camaro will be in 3rd until 112mph. 4th takes it to 160. Really, really needs gears. Even 4.10s will run to 135 mph in 4th with those tall tires. anybody make a 4.56 for it yet?
Last edited by notgetleft; 01-05-2010 at 05:17 PM.
01-05-2010, 08:26 PM
#265
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http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/05/f...om-the-chevro/
Looks like Ford wins. I pretty sure the Mustang will crush the camaro next year in sales.
Looks like Ford wins. I pretty sure the Mustang will crush the camaro next year in sales.
01-05-2010, 08:38 PM
#266
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https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=730390
Ford also had 3 months where little to no Camaros were delivered.
Although, I am not sure what any of that has to do with the new one having a 5.0 engine.
Ford also had 3 months where little to no Camaros were delivered.
Although, I am not sure what any of that has to do with the new one having a 5.0 engine.
01-05-2010, 08:39 PM
#267
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http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/05/f...om-the-chevro/
Looks like Ford wins. I pretty sure the Mustang will crush the camaro next year in sales.
Looks like Ford wins. I pretty sure the Mustang will crush the camaro next year in sales.
It's really going to be a case of continuing to fulfill latent demand for the Camaro versus new demand generated from the new Mustang engines.
If forced to make a prediction, I'd go with Camaro, but it may come down to incentives in the last quarter of the year, and which one has the most -- whether either Ford or Chevy decides it's worth or not worth capturing the sales crown.
01-05-2010, 10:53 PM
#268
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By no means is my intention to be disrespectful or condensending, but one would have to actually be around in the late 70s early 80s and into cars at that time in order to give an opinion of peoples buying habits or what certain cars meant at that time.
And Mustang WAS sold as a sporty car. Comparing it to an Escort is akin to comparing the current Camaro to a Cobalt. Just as ridiculous then as it is today.
Mustang from the Mustang II untill the 5.0L was a cheap, sporty commuter car that would be cross shopped with the likes of Escorts (especially with the 4 cylinder). It was sportier..and cost slightly more..but would be cross shopped with an Escort. I remember my mom buying an 84 Ford Escort..and ishe was looking a Mustang but it costs just a thousand or so too much of something.
01-05-2010, 11:34 PM
#269
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Why? The Camaro was well ahead from April-December. The current Mustang will not sell well without huge incentives (there were some real bargains in December at the Ford store). The new one won't really come online until April.
It's really going to be a case of continuing to fulfill latent demand for the Camaro versus new demand generated from the new Mustang engines.
If forced to make a prediction, I'd go with Camaro, but it may come down to incentives in the last quarter of the year, and which one has the most -- whether either Ford or Chevy decides it's worth or not worth capturing the sales crown.
It's really going to be a case of continuing to fulfill latent demand for the Camaro versus new demand generated from the new Mustang engines.
If forced to make a prediction, I'd go with Camaro, but it may come down to incentives in the last quarter of the year, and which one has the most -- whether either Ford or Chevy decides it's worth or not worth capturing the sales crown.
I think it's also reasonable to expect Camaro sales will begin to slow.
Where those numbers will cross on the sales chart, I can only guess...
01-06-2010, 12:24 AM
#270
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I think it's reasonable to expect Mustang sales to increase, both from closeout incentives on '10 inventory and all the '05-'09 Mustang owners who've been eagerly waiting to trade their Mustangs in on an '11.
I think it's also reasonable to expect Camaro sales will begin to slow.
Where those numbers will cross on the sales chart, I can only guess...
I think it's also reasonable to expect Camaro sales will begin to slow.
Where those numbers will cross on the sales chart, I can only guess...