IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Threxx
The current generation Accord/TL was primarily engineered in the US, primarily part-sourced in the US, built in the US, marketed in the US, sold in the US, maintained in the US, etc, etc. That's more than you can say about a whole lot of "domestic" vehicles.
Yet, if somebody buys any car witha GM badge on it (even those built, sourced, and some even styled and engineered in other countries) primarily outside the US, they are almost always applauded as being "American". Then somebody buys a TL and a bunch of idiots seem about ready to get out the pitchforks.
I'm just giving an example that it's no longer a black and white issue. With the IS350 it is because it's engineered, designed, engineered, and sourced entirely in Japan as far as I know... but that's not always the case, either.
Yet, if somebody buys any car witha GM badge on it (even those built, sourced, and some even styled and engineered in other countries) primarily outside the US, they are almost always applauded as being "American". Then somebody buys a TL and a bunch of idiots seem about ready to get out the pitchforks.
I'm just giving an example that it's no longer a black and white issue. With the IS350 it is because it's engineered, designed, engineered, and sourced entirely in Japan as far as I know... but that's not always the case, either.
Any questions?
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Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Jason E
Quick question for you: Where does the end profit go to? To which nation does it benefit?
And yes, I have a question, can you tell me what percentage of GM vehicles sold in the United States are build in the United States (not just North America), and how many Nissan, Toyota, and Honda vehicles sold in the United States are built in the United States?
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Jason E
Do you REALLY believe that boldfaced LIE you just spewed? I will go back tonight, and I will do a search of your posts from the last 6 months. I will PROVE to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you DEFINITELY wrote that very phrase. You claimed you bought your beloved XRS because "American cars suck, dealers suck and the cars fall apart." I will find it...I will quote you. Guaranteed.
I don't make it a point to pick on people on this board, but if you're going to go so blatantly "George W." on me, I will annihilate that lie. You and I argued over that very subject in a thread you started not over 6 months ago.
Red,
I'm with you 150%. My mother bought her first non-GM car ever 2 years ago...an '03 Explorer Limited. A lot of the reason my parents went for it was solely because they already owned an '02 TrailBlazer LS (now own an '05 TB LT), and didn't want two of the same car. I was p!ssed, but like she said, "at least its American." And she's right. Now, if I can't convince a friend or co-worker to buy GM, I at least try to get them to buy Ford. DCX is still a bitter pill for me to swallow because of the German ownership.
I found a website online that will produce any bumper sticker you want. I'm having 4 printed that will say "Buy American: The Job You Save May Be Your Own." I know those were popular years ago, but I can't find them anymore. One will go on my Grand Prix, one on our Grand Am, and the 2 others on my parent's cars. As a collective group, every year we get more and more pissed off. There is no nationalistic pride in supporting your own product anymore. Like someone else said...even with no tarriffs, the Japanese still would buy their own.
Collectively, as a nation we're too stupid to see what we're doing. But hey, enjoy your new Lexus, Threxx
I don't make it a point to pick on people on this board, but if you're going to go so blatantly "George W." on me, I will annihilate that lie. You and I argued over that very subject in a thread you started not over 6 months ago.
Red,
I'm with you 150%. My mother bought her first non-GM car ever 2 years ago...an '03 Explorer Limited. A lot of the reason my parents went for it was solely because they already owned an '02 TrailBlazer LS (now own an '05 TB LT), and didn't want two of the same car. I was p!ssed, but like she said, "at least its American." And she's right. Now, if I can't convince a friend or co-worker to buy GM, I at least try to get them to buy Ford. DCX is still a bitter pill for me to swallow because of the German ownership.
I found a website online that will produce any bumper sticker you want. I'm having 4 printed that will say "Buy American: The Job You Save May Be Your Own." I know those were popular years ago, but I can't find them anymore. One will go on my Grand Prix, one on our Grand Am, and the 2 others on my parent's cars. As a collective group, every year we get more and more pissed off. There is no nationalistic pride in supporting your own product anymore. Like someone else said...even with no tarriffs, the Japanese still would buy their own.
Collectively, as a nation we're too stupid to see what we're doing. But hey, enjoy your new Lexus, Threxx
So other than that I'm right there with Ya! Especially on that last part. 
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Threxx,
I don't know the answer, but I'd love to find out. So, in your assessment, because we get a bunch of $15/hr manufacturing jobs in non-union states, its ok to let a foreign owned company get your business, and for the domestic one to fall to ****? One where hundreds of thousands of white collar jobs and supplier jobs are supported? No offense, but gee...doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.
I understand there's manufacturing jobs to be had, but there's a helluva lot more at stake than just assembly line jobs.
I don't know the answer, but I'd love to find out. So, in your assessment, because we get a bunch of $15/hr manufacturing jobs in non-union states, its ok to let a foreign owned company get your business, and for the domestic one to fall to ****? One where hundreds of thousands of white collar jobs and supplier jobs are supported? No offense, but gee...doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.
I understand there's manufacturing jobs to be had, but there's a helluva lot more at stake than just assembly line jobs.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Jason E
As a so-called "idiot with a pitchfork," apparently I have the answer to that.
I'm not sure what the shareholders makeup is, but I know a Japanese gentleman is the CEO....uh wait, here is the (what looks like current) Toyota board. I don't see too many American names on here.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/04/0623.htmlI believe Nike designs and stitches together most of their shoes in China. Does that make Nike a Chinese company?
This is an argument that will go around and around until the end of time. But the evidence shows that it's foolhearty to believe that the Japanese "Big 3" invest a comparable amount of money back into this country as our "Big 3" do...Red Planet posted all the facts a while back, Honda for instance hasn't come close to investing the same amount of money in America since 1980 as GM has in the last 10 years...you will never convince me that these companies are doing us any favors when GM and Ford announce yet another round of layoffs in my hometown.
Sorry, that's just the way I feel. Now if you'll excuse me I need to drag my knuckles back into the cave and start dinner with these here two sticks and campfire wood.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Jason E
Threxx, lets be elementary here...
GM goes bankrupt. Toyota goes bankrupt. Which one hurts America more?
GM goes bankrupt. Toyota goes bankrupt. Which one hurts America more?
Well put! 
Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Jason E
Threxx, lets be elementary here...
GM goes bankrupt. Toyota goes bankrupt. Which one hurts America more?
GM goes bankrupt. Toyota goes bankrupt. Which one hurts America more?
I'm not contesting that buying a big 2 product helps that US more than buying a foreign product, but I'm just saying it's not as bad as y'all act like it is... y'all act like buying domestic 100% of the money stays in the US and buying foreign 100% of the money goes to japan. Not true at all... there are many many ways that 'foreign' car money stays in the states and many many ways that 'domestic' car money doesn't. Overall, yes, domestic car purchases keep a significant amount more money in the states, I conceed that. But when I prefer the product from Japan over the one from the US, it's just not enough of a difference for me to buy a product I feel is inferior just so that a higher percentage of my money stays in the US.
Like I said... the economy is no longer black and white, foreign and domestic... it's shades of gray inbetween. And that's why the domestic manufacturers are progressively outsourcing more and more of their part content, engineering, and manufacturing jobs to the rest of the world, and why the rest of the world is progressively moving more jobs into our country. It's becoming a global economy. So how does GM continue to compete in a global economy? They become a global company. Something that they haven't done such a good job of. They tried to make up for it by buying some european companies, as did the other 2... the other 2 also bought japanese companies. But they just haven't worked out that well.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,022
From: Newhall, CA USA
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Oh, god, do we have to do this again for the fingers-in-ears, la-la-la, slow-learner crowd?
Contribution to GNP:
GM’s is 400% more than Toyota
Capital Investment in the US:
GM (1999-2003, 5 years): $20 billion
Toyota (1980-2003, 24 years): $10.7 billion
Average Domestic Content:
GM: 82%
Toyota: 41%
Jobs Generated Per 100 Vehicles Sold
GM/Ford/DCX: 23.4 jobs
Japanese competitors: 13.3 jobs
All per RP. Please cut and paste this and keep it handy for the people who don't want to admit that buying Japanese is NOT the same as buying American, no matter where the cars are made.
Contribution to GNP:
GM’s is 400% more than Toyota
Capital Investment in the US:
GM (1999-2003, 5 years): $20 billion
Toyota (1980-2003, 24 years): $10.7 billion
Average Domestic Content:
GM: 82%
Toyota: 41%
Jobs Generated Per 100 Vehicles Sold
GM/Ford/DCX: 23.4 jobs
Japanese competitors: 13.3 jobs
All per RP. Please cut and paste this and keep it handy for the people who don't want to admit that buying Japanese is NOT the same as buying American, no matter where the cars are made.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,402
From: Toronto, ON Canada
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by RussStang
Maybe if you didn't want to conform to the "circle jerk", you would post about a new vehicle or automotive technology that was, you know, exciting. Lexus/Toyota/Scion are percieved as very boring brands, because for the most part, they are. It also seems to be what you post about, almost exclusively. Somone posted recently about the new 6.3L AMG v8, which was pretty badass. That was interesting. Even the new Mercedes Brabus post was pretty interesting. If you had posted about the new Skyline GTR or something else interesting, perhaps you might have gotten the response you always seem to look for here with your Lexus posts.
If everyone applied your criteria we would hardly have any posts. Not to mention nothing from GM outside of Cadillac, Corvette, and Solstice.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Sad thing is, it is just to expensive to make anything in this country. Companies like Toyota can make cars and parts in this country profitably for few reasons-
1. They don't have any unions to deal with at US factories. That allows them to do things like keep wages slightly lower and make employees buy their meds at a pharmacy at the factory that is run by the company (lets see the UAW agree to that). I am not sure hoe much employees at Toyota plants pay for healthcare...but I am sure it is not 0% like the UAW.
2. They don't have the healthcare overhead US companies hold. Even if it costs $700 a car to assemble and build parts in the US compared to overseas, it is still less than GM pays in healthcare on every car.
Just thoughts....
1. They don't have any unions to deal with at US factories. That allows them to do things like keep wages slightly lower and make employees buy their meds at a pharmacy at the factory that is run by the company (lets see the UAW agree to that). I am not sure hoe much employees at Toyota plants pay for healthcare...but I am sure it is not 0% like the UAW.
2. They don't have the healthcare overhead US companies hold. Even if it costs $700 a car to assemble and build parts in the US compared to overseas, it is still less than GM pays in healthcare on every car.
Just thoughts....
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,402
From: Toronto, ON Canada
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
It's a wonderful angle to be able to say "look, we Japanese provide jobs to Americans aren't we swell" while the true motivation is to quite obviously make those trucks even more profitable by skirting the tarriffs.
I would be very impressed if any corporation worked on honour and not profit. Given the choice, it is only wise to do what they are doing. You could say that GM bought Daewoo not to consider itself more "asian", but to actually build cars at maximum profit and get into the asian market.
So what is the big deal? Business is business. Corporations use the provisions granted to them by governments. They do what works. And kudos to them for that.
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,238
From: Wet Coast
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Jason E
Do you REALLY believe that boldfaced LIE you just spewed? I will go back tonight, and I will do a search of your posts from the last 6 months. I will PROVE to you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you DEFINITELY wrote that very phrase. You claimed you bought your beloved XRS because "American cars suck, dealers suck and the cars fall apart." I will find it...I will quote you. Guaranteed.
I don't make it a point to pick on people on this board, but if you're going to go so blatantly "George W." on me, I will annihilate that lie. You and I argued over that very subject in a thread you started not over 6 months ago.
Red,
I'm with you 150%. My mother bought her first non-GM car ever 2 years ago...an '03 Explorer Limited. A lot of the reason my parents went for it was solely because they already owned an '02 TrailBlazer LS (now own an '05 TB LT), and didn't want two of the same car. I was p!ssed, but like she said, "at least its American." And she's right. Now, if I can't convince a friend or co-worker to buy GM, I at least try to get them to buy Ford. DCX is still a bitter pill for me to swallow because of the German ownership.
I found a website online that will produce any bumper sticker you want. I'm having 4 printed that will say "Buy American: The Job You Save May Be Your Own." I know those were popular years ago, but I can't find them anymore. One will go on my Grand Prix, one on our Grand Am, and the 2 others on my parent's cars. As a collective group, every year we get more and more pissed off. There is no nationalistic pride in supporting your own product anymore. Like someone else said...even with no tarriffs, the Japanese still would buy their own.
I don't make it a point to pick on people on this board, but if you're going to go so blatantly "George W." on me, I will annihilate that lie. You and I argued over that very subject in a thread you started not over 6 months ago.
Red,
I'm with you 150%. My mother bought her first non-GM car ever 2 years ago...an '03 Explorer Limited. A lot of the reason my parents went for it was solely because they already owned an '02 TrailBlazer LS (now own an '05 TB LT), and didn't want two of the same car. I was p!ssed, but like she said, "at least its American." And she's right. Now, if I can't convince a friend or co-worker to buy GM, I at least try to get them to buy Ford. DCX is still a bitter pill for me to swallow because of the German ownership.
I found a website online that will produce any bumper sticker you want. I'm having 4 printed that will say "Buy American: The Job You Save May Be Your Own." I know those were popular years ago, but I can't find them anymore. One will go on my Grand Prix, one on our Grand Am, and the 2 others on my parent's cars. As a collective group, every year we get more and more pissed off. There is no nationalistic pride in supporting your own product anymore. Like someone else said...even with no tarriffs, the Japanese still would buy their own.
2.) "Imports" gaining more market share brings MORE jobs in. The Camry is the best selling car in the U.S right? Waitaminute, the Camry is made by a *gasp* JAPANESE company!!!
Oh noes!!!!
So it seems that Toyota sells the best selling car in the US right? Either that means Americans are all dumb, or Toyota makes good products.
3.) Why don't you want to buy from a company owned by Germans? Doesn't Ford OWN Mazda, but mazda still sells in Japan? In an ironic twist, don't that mean that Mazda's profit kicks back to this continent?
Or GM that owns a lot of Subaru does that stop people from buying Subarus in Japan?
If it makes you feel "patriotic" go drive your "American" car, which was built in Canada by the French. The squeaks and rattles just be the car humming the star spangled banner.
The V8 c an take you home in a hurry so you can watch TV on your Japanese big screen.
BTW as I said before, Japan buys into a lot of American things like movies/music, baseball, Coke, McDonald's, etc.
Don't think it's a one way street.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Threxx
I'm well aware of which would hurt the United States more. But that alone is not reason enough for me to buy a car I don't like.
I'm not contesting that buying a big 2 product helps that US more than buying a foreign product, but I'm just saying it's not as bad as y'all act like it is... y'all act like buying domestic 100% of the money stays in the US and buying foreign 100% of the money goes to japan. Not true at all... there are many many ways that 'foreign' car money stays in the states and many many ways that 'domestic' car money doesn't. Overall, yes, domestic car purchases keep a significant amount more money in the states, I conceed that. But when I prefer the product from Japan over the one from the US, it's just not enough of a difference for me to buy a product I feel is inferior just so that a higher percentage of my money stays in the US.
Like I said... the economy is no longer black and white, foreign and domestic... it's shades of gray inbetween. And that's why the domestic manufacturers are progressively outsourcing more and more of their part content, engineering, and manufacturing jobs to the rest of the world, and why the rest of the world is progressively moving more jobs into our country. It's becoming a global economy. So how does GM continue to compete in a global economy? They become a global company. Something that they haven't done such a good job of. They tried to make up for it by buying some european companies, as did the other 2... the other 2 also bought japanese companies. But they just haven't worked out that well.
I'm not contesting that buying a big 2 product helps that US more than buying a foreign product, but I'm just saying it's not as bad as y'all act like it is... y'all act like buying domestic 100% of the money stays in the US and buying foreign 100% of the money goes to japan. Not true at all... there are many many ways that 'foreign' car money stays in the states and many many ways that 'domestic' car money doesn't. Overall, yes, domestic car purchases keep a significant amount more money in the states, I conceed that. But when I prefer the product from Japan over the one from the US, it's just not enough of a difference for me to buy a product I feel is inferior just so that a higher percentage of my money stays in the US.
Like I said... the economy is no longer black and white, foreign and domestic... it's shades of gray inbetween. And that's why the domestic manufacturers are progressively outsourcing more and more of their part content, engineering, and manufacturing jobs to the rest of the world, and why the rest of the world is progressively moving more jobs into our country. It's becoming a global economy. So how does GM continue to compete in a global economy? They become a global company. Something that they haven't done such a good job of. They tried to make up for it by buying some european companies, as did the other 2... the other 2 also bought japanese companies. But they just haven't worked out that well.
.
Originally Posted by centric
Oh, god, do we have to do this again for the fingers-in-ears, la-la-la, slow-learner crowd?
Contribution to GNP:
GM’s is 400% more than Toyota
Capital Investment in the US:
GM (1999-2003, 5 years): $20 billion
Toyota (1980-2003, 24 years): $10.7 billion
Average Domestic Content:
GM: 82%
Toyota: 41%
Jobs Generated Per 100 Vehicles Sold
GM/Ford/DCX: 23.4 jobs
Japanese competitors: 13.3 jobs
Contribution to GNP:
GM’s is 400% more than Toyota
Capital Investment in the US:
GM (1999-2003, 5 years): $20 billion
Toyota (1980-2003, 24 years): $10.7 billion
Average Domestic Content:
GM: 82%
Toyota: 41%
Jobs Generated Per 100 Vehicles Sold
GM/Ford/DCX: 23.4 jobs
Japanese competitors: 13.3 jobs
IF ANYTHING - that data shows that Toyota contributes more then alot of us thought... Something to think about: 41% DC and I don't care who you are 10.7 Billion Capitol investment in a LIFETIME is still something to write home about... The company I work for has been around 30 years (In Germany) and I doubt we're even close to 10.7 Billion Capitol investment Worldwide! let alone Germany. (Industrial Filtration Company ~ 50 Million Sales yearly).
He didn't say it was the same as buying American, but we all HAVE to agree that it is a grey area. C'mon now, this isn't the late 1800's. Wake up people.
Last edited by Chrome383Z; Jul 21, 2005 at 06:40 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Re: IS350's power output officially announced (plus other interesting info)
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
Yes, "idiots" are apparently what we are. It's just like those who want you to believe that all who voted for GWB are all cavemen with IQ's below 30. But I digress....
I'm not sure what the shareholders makeup is, but I know a Japanese gentleman is the CEO....uh wait, here is the (what looks like current) Toyota board. I don't see too many American names on here. http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/04/0623.html
I believe Nike designs and stitches together most of their shoes in China. Does that make Nike a Chinese company?
This is an argument that will go around and around until the end of time. But the evidence shows that it's foolhearty to believe that the Japanese "Big 3" invest a comparable amount of money back into this country as our "Big 3" do...Red Planet posted all the facts a while back, Honda for instance hasn't come close to investing the same amount of money in America since 1980 as GM has in the last 10 years...you will never convince me that these companies are doing us any favors when GM and Ford announce yet another round of layoffs in my hometown.
Sorry, that's just the way I feel. Now if you'll excuse me I need to drag my knuckles back into the cave and start dinner with these here two sticks and campfire wood.
I'm not sure what the shareholders makeup is, but I know a Japanese gentleman is the CEO....uh wait, here is the (what looks like current) Toyota board. I don't see too many American names on here.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/04/0623.htmlI believe Nike designs and stitches together most of their shoes in China. Does that make Nike a Chinese company?
This is an argument that will go around and around until the end of time. But the evidence shows that it's foolhearty to believe that the Japanese "Big 3" invest a comparable amount of money back into this country as our "Big 3" do...Red Planet posted all the facts a while back, Honda for instance hasn't come close to investing the same amount of money in America since 1980 as GM has in the last 10 years...you will never convince me that these companies are doing us any favors when GM and Ford announce yet another round of layoffs in my hometown.
Sorry, that's just the way I feel. Now if you'll excuse me I need to drag my knuckles back into the cave and start dinner with these here two sticks and campfire wood.