How in God's name does the V8 weigh nearly the same as the Ecotec? :no:

If you're going to pull figures out of your @#%!@#%@#, at least use 'educated' estimates.

Oh, another one of these vaporware threads, goodie. That makes it count number 16,361 according to the stats sheet.

That said, I will ban myself from this futile thread. :rolleyes:

Whoa!.... a 462 horsepower, 4 passenger, steel unibodied, independently rear suspended coupe weighing just 3395???!! You've been hitting my bottle of LaFee Absinthe, haven't you? :lol:

But seriously though, I think you're making the same mistake Ford made with their all or nothing choice of a 4 or a V8 in the later Fox Mustangs.

I don't have much to add to your model lineup, but I think we need to focus on getting the same performance from lighter cars with smaller engines (and hence better fuel economy) then adopting GM's seeming goals of simply getting more power from bigger engines with minimal effects on fuel economy.


First of all, I would propose a Camaro about the size of the Genesis coupe and the G38. Shrinking the car isn't going to shed massive amounts of weight because we're still dealing with IRS, a tight chassis, and good sized brakes (check the weights of a G38, Genisis coupe, and even the last BMW M3!). But shrinking the car WILL give it a far better feel, and a more fun and tossable size. That means we'll have a car not as wide, let alone not as long. But you'll be able to throw it around.

I think your weight range of 3350 to 3575 is spot on. That falls in line with what you'd expect an Ecotec 4 and a V8 powered car of that size and equptment would run.

Now, here's where Guy's likley to get tarred and feathered.

I would have the turbo Ecotec standard on the Camaro coupe. Yes, turbocharged. Optional handling package like you mentioned. The Genesis coupe has a turbo 4 standard. The 300+ horse V6s in the current Camaro and new Mustang set the stage for powerful base engine coupes. Because of this, I'd skip the NA Ecotec entirely.


The SS would have either the turbo Ecotec or an upgraded version of the current V6. No V8. Before anyone starts searching pillows for feathers, consider this: This V6 powered Camaro would be about 400 pounds lighter than the current Camaro. Combine that with a bump in power to say 325-330 horsepower and say another 15-20 lbs/ft of torque, and you're most certainly going to have a V6 powered SS that's under 5 seconds to 60 and a top end well over 160 mph (the current 3800 pound V6 Camaro does 157mph...and it's governed!).


I'd save the V8 for the Z28. Number of reasons.

First, people are willing to pay 10 grand or more for a V8, but outside of a relatively small group of enthusisasts and top line luxury car buyers, V8s are out of the conscious of passenger car buyers. This is a chance to highlight the V8 in the role it's drifted into, an ultimate engine.

Second, as a high priced (around 40K) package, it can have specialized parts. This both allows the V8 models to have heavier duty (and heavier weight) suspension and drivetrain components while the rest of of the lineup can can have lighter weight parts. For the premium you'd pay, you'd clearly get more than an engine and brake package which is primarily what the current SS is.

And finally, the line would be essentially CAFE-proof. The commanding majority of the sales would be the turbo 4 and the V6. But the turbo 4 would still have the performance of the current V6 (if not a bit quicker), the V6 would be in spitting distance of the SS, and the V8 would be a more exclusive performance car far above the current SS and even matching a theorical supercharged 5th gen Z28...without the need for heavy supercharging and strengthened items required for something putting out over 550 horsepower needing to move something roughly 2 tons.

With inflation, I would think this lineup would keep prices where they are today even with inflation, and perhaps even slightly lower the price for an SS.


One last thing to keep in mind regarding content.

Stripped cars simply do not sell. Someone looking at a $30,000 Mustang with power everything isn't going to go look at a $30,000 Camaro with manual windows and everything else, and a lot less content and decide to buy the Camaro.

Truth of the matter is this, anyone buying a performance version of a Mustang or Camaro is going to tend to load it up with as many options as they think they can afford. There simply are not enough sales (especially regarding cars like these) to justify the investment in making the manual parts and the items that would go in place of those deleted items worth while.

I recall that both Ford and GM did studies of this. Both came to the same conclusion.

I'm kinda with you on the V6 issue. My gut tells me that there will be one offered somewhere in the 6th gen lineup. I think the pony car market will have to be "weened" off a V6, even if in your description it is the mid level engine. I'm fine with a turbo 4 being offered, but aesthetically, a V6 would have it's advantages.

Replace GT with Pony Car....

Stupid safety crap till you meet a drunk driver frantically texting on his phone while heading the wrong way down a one lane road in his run away Toyota. :p

Can't say I completely agree there. In THIS segment, the V8 is pretty darned popular. Always has been. Regardless of how orgasmic you get about the V6 Camaro, the V8 is cleaning its clock in terms of sales - still more than a year after introduction. That isn't a trend I necessarily want to see continue (I've said many times, depending on V8 sales to sustain a Pony Car is asking for trouble) but you can't ignore facts.

In the pony car segment, buyers want the V8. It needs to be offered in both 'SS' and 'Z28' trim. I don't think you'll see Mustang remove the V8 from the GT and only offer it in GT500 trim....

A 210hp Camaro weighing 3400lbs would be embarrassing.

Sounds pretty similar to a 4th gen...?

And I agree with you...gotta step up the game here. The 5th gens and the new Mustang have made the "base model" appealing...you can't back-track.

Well, if that Camaro knocks down some really good MPG numbers, like over 35 mpg, it'll give more breathing room for the V8 versions. It's gonna be a whole new world in a few years folks.

I truely believe what Guy describes makes a lot of sense. My only concern is what this smaller Camaro looks like. If it isn't a hot looking car that makes us feel that Camaro excitement when we see it, it's pointless. I like the width and length of the current Camaro, it's the bulky looking height of it that I'd like to see changed most. Park a 3rd gen next to it and you really see what I'm talking about. Low and sleek is the look I'd like to see.

Hey, don't get fancy with me Guy ....I had to look that stuff up, sounds alot like Ouzo. :lol:

3395 sounds impossible TODAY, but we are headed in that direction. I'm sure the 2012 Boss will be in the 3500 pound range, the next gen cars will take that even further. But like I said in a previous post, something like that will require a dose of "sweating the details". Something to shoot for.

My version:

1) Budget
Camaro Sport Coupe:
-One engine: normally aspirated 2.4L Ecotec. 210 hp.
Weight: 3300 pounds (coupe)
Price: Price leader starting at $20k (today's dollars)

2) High volume for CAFE
Camaro Sport Coupe:
-One engine: turbo 2.0L Ecotec. 300+ hp.
-F41 performance package available.
-Various high content features optional.
Weight: 3350 -3450 pounds (coupe)
Price: Value pricing for max volume $23k-$30k

2) Luxury
Camaro SS:
-One engine: Gen V 6.2L V8. 415 hp.
-Various high content features standard.
Weight: 3450-3575 pounds. (coupe)
Price: Higher based on content and demand for V8: $32-40k.

3) Performance
Camaro Z/28
-One engine: Gen V 6.2L V8. 465 hp.
-Specific "Special Performance Package" - includes light weight components hood, trunk, suspension, structural members.
-Various high content features optional.
Weight: 3395-3575 pounds. (coupe)
Price: $32k (stripper) - 45k (fully loaded).

The 4th gens used the 3.8, which has torque. A gutless N/A 4cyl in a 3400lb car would not be defined as a pony car.

True...so I guess I should edit what I said...


"sounds worse than the crappy 4th gen V6"

That were the 305 TPI auto 3rd gen cars embarrassing?