RX7 never stopped in Japan, so it's not exactly a comeback. Wouldn't expect it in the US with the RX8 inroute, at least not right off.

 

Z28, I think you're on the right track here..One of the major problems with the last gen. F-body, and especially with the 3rd gen. F-body was the fact that there was no stripped-down low-cost, go-fast option package for the car. What the 5th gen really needs is a [PLEASE forgive me for saying this] 5.0 LX type of car. The Ford boys made out like bandits with a popular formula used in the sixties: low-cost, low-option go fast cars. GM really had nothing to match, you either got a sissy-boy V-6 car, or an optioned out IROC or GTA. Nothing CREDIBLE in the middle. I will save the embarrasement of mentioning the 5.0 "pity" V-8. The nineties were more of the same thing. While the v-6 used from ~'96 on [the mighty buick 3.8L] certainly improved the situation, it still was no match for a V-8.

Here's a great lineup:
1) Base v-6 N/A 3.8L v-6. Competent, sporty acceleration, "sporty" handling w/decent ride.

2) S/C 3.8L v-6 or "detuned" 5.7L for about 260HP. 0-60 ~6.5 sec, competent handling, firm ride.

3) 5.7L V-8 310 HP, 340 HP w/ram-air [pontiac only of course, "cold air induction" for chevy]. 0-60 <5 sec. Wicked handling, ride quality for the "purist" only.

4) Tuner cars take it up from there.....

Here's the catch: Either powertrain option #2 or #3 could be optioned from the base car. Only required option would be an appropriate handling package to deal w/the power output [if necessary]. Radio delete, manual windows, etc..Almost a police package type of deal...

I think a combo like that would really perk up sales [in addition to a lot of other changes]...

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

 

Yeah, I'd really like to see some sort of cheap, affordable (both in cost and insurability) performance package for a base car. And there is no reason that it couldn't be based around a V6...especially if we're talking around the 230+ hp range.

As far as 5.0 LX type car....unfortunately, Chevy has allowed the Z/28 to become the Camaro "LX".

 

....maybe something similar to the early 3rd gen F41 package which could be combined with an LG4 V8.

Although the LG4's 140 hp doesn't sound like alot (because it's not)....this F41 V8 combo compared well to 140-165hp Z/28's and Trans Ams, and 157hp Mustang GT's....and was very affordable.

 

The sad thing is that we will have to live with a base model that will be the volume leader. Think about the Mustang ... they sell thousands upon thousands of V6 models whereas less than 50% of 2002 Camaros were V6's. You've got to make the base model desirable in order to sell lots of them. I think the supercharged 3.8L V6 (L67) from the Grand Prix GTP in RWD configuration would be a great base engine.

The import market has succeeded like crazy because of a few reasons which F-Body cannot ignore: a) cheap insurance (on the FWD cars), b) build quality, c) easy to mod. The insurance situation may or may not be fixable, given F-Body's history as a high-risk sports car. A 16 yr old can get a V6 Camaro and pay $2500/yr in insurance or a Civic Si, pay 25% less for his premiums, and put the difference towards mods.

I don't think we'll ever get to the build quality of the Japanese or Europeans. After reading "All Corvettes Are Red", I think the GM bureaucracy and beancounters will never change.

And regarding mods, you need only to go to Barnes & Noble to see how many import tuner magazines are out there, each filled to the brim with ads for parts. I think our only magazine, GMHTP, is struggling to fill advertising space. They could only dream of having page after page of ads like the import mags do.

So in short, I say delay the F-Body if that means it will be better equipped to compete against this new breed of overseas competitors. I don't want to buy another solid axle car weighing 3500 lbs that will get its **** handed to it around a road course by a lightweight import.

------------------
------------
Edward Doan
97 Black Firebird A4
Mods: F-1 catback, 1LE sway bars, Pirelli P7000SS tires
Taillight/turn signal blackouts

 

Yes, choices are a must for success. Look at the early-mid Third Gen, lots of choices, although the Third had lots of other choices (engines, gears, performance options, appearance options) even when there were only 2 models available later on, things the 4th Gen never did but should have. Maybe something like this for the 5th:

Z28-6.0 or whatever, making around 410-425HP or more. Looks and performs aggressive/incredible all around like a top car should, definetly a real performance/enthusiats car.

SS-current 5.7, modded to make around 380-390HP. A car with luxury-like int. options and good but compromising suspension for people who want performance but want it a little toned down.

RS-5.0, making about 275-300HP, just make sure it enough power to beat a M*****g GT.

Base-V6, about 200HP and good gas mileage.

I hope they see that a setup like this is what buyers are looking for. Choices!! Looks and performance in all areas would start with the Z28 and get toned down for each next model. If there can't be that many models, (there should be though) the 1 or 2 to go would either be the base car or SS, but all the engines would stay. Right now its like 64 for GM when Chevrolet started on the direct M*****g competitor that would become the Camaro. Designing a car to come and beat out an already successfull car made by another company. They did it in alot of ways and to me they really won it all, and as for the hiatus, GM took its own car out and no1 else. IMO they're going to do it again when our 66 comes around.


------------------
Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic.

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 23, 2002).]

 

One thing for sure....if the upcoming Supra is anything like the the previous Supra..(and all indications are it will be even better)....it will be a screaming bargain at $30-35k.

Have no misconceptions folks, this will be a direct Camaro competitor.

Every paradigm you have ever associated with Camaro will need to be surpassed and leapfrogged to compete with these new gen products.

....let's hope Chevy is up to the challenge!

 

hmm.. I guess you've never heard of the Formula then? That is *exactly* the car you are asking for. Available stripped of any luxuries and with 350 (and WS6 is standard on all Formulas). What else do you want, for a "stripped-down low-cost, go-fast option package"? that's the Formula exactly. Thirdgen had a plethora of options.

LQ8 base firebird 2.5 L4 TBI (82-86)
LC1 base firebird 2.8 V6 2bbl (82-84)
LL1 base firebird 2.8 V6 HO (83-84)
??? base firebird 3.1 V6 MPFI (??-92)
LG4 base firebird 5.0 V8 4bbl (82-87)
LB8 base firebird 2.8 V6 MPFI (85-??)
LB8 firebird S/E 2.8 V6 MPFI (85-86)
LQ8 firebird S/E 2.5 L4 (82-86)
LC1 firebird S/E 2.8 V6 (82-86)
LL1 firebird S/E 2.8 V6 HO (83-84?)
LG4 firebird S/E 5.0 V8 4bbl (82-86?)
L?? firebird formula 305 TPI (87-92)
L98 firebird formula 350 TPI (87-92)
LU5 trans am 305 cfi (82-83)
LG4 trans am 305 4bbl (82-87?)
L69 trans am 305 4bbl HO (83-85)
L?? trans am GTA 305 TPI (87-92)
L98 trans am GTA 350 TPI (87-92)
L?? trans am 305 TPI (87-92)
L98 trans am 350 TPI (87-92)
LB9 base firebird 305 TBI (87-92)

OK now this is probably not even a complete list, and I'm not going for 100% accuracy so don't even bother correcting me if I made any mistakes above, but the point I'm making is for those of you complaining about variety: if that list is not enough for you to find a suitable car to choose from to satisfy your tastes, then you're just asking for too much. Now for the 4th gen:

base firebird 3.4 V6 (93-97?)
base firebird 3.8 V6 (98-02?)
formula LT1 (93-97?)
trans am LT1 (93-97?)
formula LS1 (98-02?)
trans am LS1 (98-02?)

there's the problem. ugly cars that give people a headache to look at, and NO engine options. you either get ONE V6 at any given time, or ONE V8 at any given time. from 97-98 the cost of f-body's also rose something like $3500, just in ONE year's time. that's not inflation.

3rd gen had plenty of variety and low-cost stripper go-fast casrs, and 4th gen did not.

 

I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean in sales? Because if I have the option of buying Supra for around 30-35K, I'd definitely consider it, seeing the current performance of those cars.

If you had in mind their performance, I think they are way out of Camaro league. These guys (Supras) compete with Vipers and Porsches (not even Corvette) in modified form.

Supra is a great package. We only hope GM would be able to match it.

 

What I mean by that is..if a 2+2, rwd, 350+ hp,Supra truly comes in at the $30-35k price point..it will be a natural competitor for a top end Camaro...like Z/28,(a 5th gen Z/28 should also be in the $30k range).

And you're right..the former Supra's performance...especially in turbo form...is virtually unlimited. With a chassis to match.

This would raise the "pony car" performance/refinement bar considerably....I hope Chevy is not cought flat footed.

 

The IS300 engine (2JZ-GE) is different from the MKIV engine (2JZ-GTE). You can't just slap an `ol turbo on 2JZ-GE engines, that costs a LOT of money to convert those NA engines to turboed.

------------------
--David--
1995 white Firebird 3.4 V6 A4 w/ T-tops
Mods:Kenwood KDC516S stereo, front and rear Alpine speakers, Flowmaster 80 series, Firebat and Autografics decals, Moroso CAI, Rally Foglights, Painted interior (Silver Metallic), 3 10" MTX Thunder 6000 subs, BMR STB, Zaino, !speed, !horsepower Help CT get a dragstrip!

 

The key is WORTHWHILE options! The 3rd gen had the 350 AND THAT WAS IT! I had a camaro with the 305 and that was LAME! The 5.0 LX was a BASE mustang with a V-8 & decent tires & O.K. suspension. The formula has the top V-8 (similar to Ford) but, because it was a separate model, carried a similar insurance stigma to the trans-am. The V-6 is kind of a sleeper to the insurance industry. A S/C v-6 from the G/P (which is not an insurance target) would be an excellent out for that issue. ~240 + H.P. would get it into 3rd gen V-8 territory w/o the insurance costs! Then above that the sky's the limit!

America really needs to find something to battle the import craze. Like a previous post mentioned: The imports fill the needs of young kids hot rodding needs...They can build up these inexpensive cars (that sound like lawn mowers on steroids!) without the insurance companies knowing, and end up with a mini-monster (mini me!) of a car!

I really think that the 5th gen needs to appeal to that market, just like in the sixties' musclecar theory. Cheap & FAST but w/o the insurance stigma!

------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

 

I think you're operating on a common misconception,` GOATCRAZY. Engine horsepower does not set the insurence rates, claims do. The younger & more aggresive a car's buyers tend to be, the higher the rates. 2 examples:

I had a 1989 Thunderbird SC which in that year, was within 2/10 seconds 0-60 of a 5.0 Mustang, yet had a much higher top speed. Yet because T-Birds had an older customer base, and next to no aggresive drivers making claims, even though it cost $22K at a time Mustangs 5.0 LXs were going for $14K, T-birds had way lower insurence rates (about a 3rd at the time).

Another example, when I changed insurence companies, I went through a few different cars with my agent, just to see how much more money I'm paying to insure my 97 Z28 compared to a few other 97 vehicles. Mustang GT was slightly more, Integras were alot more, as were a couple of other lesser powerful cars. Ironically, getting a '97 Corvette, at least in my case, barely affects my insurence.

In short, it doesn't much matter if a car has a turbo V6, a supercharged 4, or a N/A V8. Insurence is based on the carline's history of claims, the driver's age & driving record, & any safety or anti-theft devices you have.

 

That sure is alot of engine choices IZ28.

Realistically, Z28 & SS would likely be 2 tunes of the same engine (see how the LS6 anniversairy model idea went over with the powers that be). I'd also have a base engine, and, though Redplanet seemed to be dead set against the idea, a mid power engine (either a blown version of the base motor or a 5.3 V8) that would not have to be crash tested because it would be the same block.

I think a 60 horsepower spread between engines would be reasonable and economical production-wise.

 

I am such a believer that added engine choices are critical for the next Camaro's success....we all know the reasons..we've talked about it a million times.

-230hp....base V6 coupe

-290-320hp...intermediate V8 (RS, SS, Berlinetta...call it whatever)

-380+hp....top V8 for Z/28 (shared with C6)