If Camaro is the only Zeta left........
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From: Chicagoland IL
But nevertheless, Chevy doesn't have one car which gets 35 mpg. Not the Aveo. Not the Cobalt. Not even the Malibu Hybrid.
I can't imagine future Corvettes without a V8. Hopefully, Camaro will have one available as well.
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From: NC
Naw. He's a huge Camaro fan. Just a bit pessimistic.
Here's how I see it.
Zeta is perhaps one of the lowest cost structures GM has made in some time. Compared with other architectures GM has made in recent years, Zeta has the biggest bang for the investment buck. The structure was made to be profitable if only Holden used it. Variations on the structure cost very little.
GM North America isn't the Keystone cops you frequently make them out to be. GM ALWAYS has an alternate plan, and ALWAYS hedges their bets. To us on the outside, it appears that they lurch from 1 direction to another, but in reality they are simply being fluid. Being that it takes years to develop a new vehicle and put it on the market, the MUST be.
GM was debating the RWD vs FWD Impala business since at least last winter. There was even the idea of calling the RWD sedan something else. The case for a RWD Impala was always precarious. You have a FWD car selling at 250,000 per year. Even if only 125,000 is going to retail buyers, there is still money being made off fleet sales. Why tool up for a chassis new to the continent when you can rebody an existing chassis, utilize existing supply lines, and continue selling those numbers? Why risk a drop in sales changing the formula? This was what Impala was up against even before the new CAFE. CAFE just tip the scales to a project that was already moving forward with barely anything more than the desire of Bob Lutz.
As for the Pontiac sedan, it's far from dead. The G8 is already on our shores. It's already committed to be sold here till at least 2012MY (3 years). If it is successful, and/or exceeds expectations, it's ridiculous to think GM won't find a way to sell the next generation. A Buick Zeta sedan had a stronger business case than a Zeta Impala.
I wouldn't write Cadillac off either just yet as well. Here's why.
The big selling point with Zeta is that it's more space efficient in the rear quarters than Sigma can be if both are the same size. Zeta has the ability to have more rear seat room and a larger trunk than Sigma. Zeta is also a much cheaper architecture to manufacture than Sigma, which is why Zeta was going to replace Sigma in the 1st place and was the 1st choice for a roomy large Cadillac over Sigma. The argument is that GM would make more money per car using Zeta over Sigma, with no penalty in weight (remember, this is Cadillac and the new Sigma STS is already 2 tons) and therefore no fuel economy penalty.
Ditto Buick. There is a chance we might get ours from China (GM already floated that option by dealers turned it down, remarkably), but I still wouldn't discount it completely as a top model Buick.
About Alpha, it was said already that too much is being put on to and expected out of Alpha, and I agree. Again here's why.
Alpha is a spinoff of the Kappa. It's purpose is to offer a smaller rear drive platform for use both in Europe & Australia and potentially as a sports chassis here in the US. Like the Kappa, this IS NOT being engineered to take a V8 engine. Therefore, the structure is lighter, the components are lighter, and it's planned to be a great handling architecture. Add a V8, and the whole project makes no sense whatsoever and is dead in it's tracks.
Now that CAFE has been approved, it solidifies Alpha's use here in the US which up until CAFE was still a guess (yet another reason CAFE did some good). Cadillac will use it on it's BLS here, but it's also seeming going to other divisions here as well. Namely Saturn and Pontiac.
Regarding a 6th gen Camaro, I think it's a given that this chassis will be the 5th gen's replacement. It's all just speculation at this point, but it's safe to say volume oriented, 6.2 liter, 425 horsepower, 3700 pound, 4 passenger sport coupes probally won't be around much past the middle of next decade. But if there is still a demand for RWD sport coupes and it can be made profitably, GM is no doubt going to make them. Even if that means nothing bigger than a turbo 4 or a DI V6.
The real meat of the CAFE standards don't kick in till about 2014-2015. About that time, we're going to see some real changes in the cars we drive. Till then, we'll still see V8s (though possibly restricted somewhat in sales or prices jacked up), and RWD will still be alive.
Here's how I see it.
Zeta is perhaps one of the lowest cost structures GM has made in some time. Compared with other architectures GM has made in recent years, Zeta has the biggest bang for the investment buck. The structure was made to be profitable if only Holden used it. Variations on the structure cost very little.
GM North America isn't the Keystone cops you frequently make them out to be. GM ALWAYS has an alternate plan, and ALWAYS hedges their bets. To us on the outside, it appears that they lurch from 1 direction to another, but in reality they are simply being fluid. Being that it takes years to develop a new vehicle and put it on the market, the MUST be.
GM was debating the RWD vs FWD Impala business since at least last winter. There was even the idea of calling the RWD sedan something else. The case for a RWD Impala was always precarious. You have a FWD car selling at 250,000 per year. Even if only 125,000 is going to retail buyers, there is still money being made off fleet sales. Why tool up for a chassis new to the continent when you can rebody an existing chassis, utilize existing supply lines, and continue selling those numbers? Why risk a drop in sales changing the formula? This was what Impala was up against even before the new CAFE. CAFE just tip the scales to a project that was already moving forward with barely anything more than the desire of Bob Lutz.
As for the Pontiac sedan, it's far from dead. The G8 is already on our shores. It's already committed to be sold here till at least 2012MY (3 years). If it is successful, and/or exceeds expectations, it's ridiculous to think GM won't find a way to sell the next generation. A Buick Zeta sedan had a stronger business case than a Zeta Impala.
I wouldn't write Cadillac off either just yet as well. Here's why.
The big selling point with Zeta is that it's more space efficient in the rear quarters than Sigma can be if both are the same size. Zeta has the ability to have more rear seat room and a larger trunk than Sigma. Zeta is also a much cheaper architecture to manufacture than Sigma, which is why Zeta was going to replace Sigma in the 1st place and was the 1st choice for a roomy large Cadillac over Sigma. The argument is that GM would make more money per car using Zeta over Sigma, with no penalty in weight (remember, this is Cadillac and the new Sigma STS is already 2 tons) and therefore no fuel economy penalty.
Ditto Buick. There is a chance we might get ours from China (GM already floated that option by dealers turned it down, remarkably), but I still wouldn't discount it completely as a top model Buick.
About Alpha, it was said already that too much is being put on to and expected out of Alpha, and I agree. Again here's why.
Alpha is a spinoff of the Kappa. It's purpose is to offer a smaller rear drive platform for use both in Europe & Australia and potentially as a sports chassis here in the US. Like the Kappa, this IS NOT being engineered to take a V8 engine. Therefore, the structure is lighter, the components are lighter, and it's planned to be a great handling architecture. Add a V8, and the whole project makes no sense whatsoever and is dead in it's tracks.
Now that CAFE has been approved, it solidifies Alpha's use here in the US which up until CAFE was still a guess (yet another reason CAFE did some good). Cadillac will use it on it's BLS here, but it's also seeming going to other divisions here as well. Namely Saturn and Pontiac.
Regarding a 6th gen Camaro, I think it's a given that this chassis will be the 5th gen's replacement. It's all just speculation at this point, but it's safe to say volume oriented, 6.2 liter, 425 horsepower, 3700 pound, 4 passenger sport coupes probally won't be around much past the middle of next decade. But if there is still a demand for RWD sport coupes and it can be made profitably, GM is no doubt going to make them. Even if that means nothing bigger than a turbo 4 or a DI V6.
The real meat of the CAFE standards don't kick in till about 2014-2015. About that time, we're going to see some real changes in the cars we drive. Till then, we'll still see V8s (though possibly restricted somewhat in sales or prices jacked up), and RWD will still be alive.
So, basically, get the cool cars while you can because 2014-2015 will be the death of performance and enthusiasts.
(At least, that's how I see it)
It's a sad day indeed...
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From: Jersey Shore
Hard to imagine where that would come from, especially when you read All Corvettes are Red you see how obsessive they were for every ounce of weight on the C5. And it definitely paid off ... Corvettes are pretty much the lightest cars in their class. Even when cost becomes less of a concern like on the ZO6 or ZR1, they're still not getting a 300-400 pound reduction (assuming equal powertrains).
Remember that the Z06 offset some of the weight loss with the larger components like the brakes, suspension, etc.
If you were to take the aluminum frame, and put standard Corvette components on, I wonder how much lighter it would be compared to a standard Vette with steel frame? Im sure someone inside Vette has thought of this. Of course this is easier said then done since the suspension would have to be recalibrated and reformulated for the lighter frame, but possible. Remove the leaf springs and go to a lighter coil over system, adapt the magnesium engine cradle as well, and you could shave a good 300lbs off a stock C6.
Not saying that they did that...but they could.
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).
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From: AR (PA born and fled)
Believe it or not, the (fiberglass) leaf springs are actually lighter than a set of coils. That's why they're still on there. The only reason people go to coilovers on the Corvette is:
1) So they can say they have coilovers
2) So racers can have a larger selection of spring rates where the rules allow coilovers.
Also, does it make anyone else crazy when you see a nice C5 ZO6 for sale with a Corsa or some other exhaust installed. Lemme see, they trashed a very cool and very lightweight Ti setup for some heavier stainless and a little more noise.
On a related note more pertinent to where the weight savings will come from, just recently Toyota has invested heavily in carbon fiber tech. I'm sure GM has done the same in the run up for the ZR1. Who knows? In 10 years carbon fiber may be no more exotic than aluminum or magnesium. Two metals, I might add, that my 5 year old truck has in surprising quantities.
1) So they can say they have coilovers
2) So racers can have a larger selection of spring rates where the rules allow coilovers.
Also, does it make anyone else crazy when you see a nice C5 ZO6 for sale with a Corsa or some other exhaust installed. Lemme see, they trashed a very cool and very lightweight Ti setup for some heavier stainless and a little more noise.
On a related note more pertinent to where the weight savings will come from, just recently Toyota has invested heavily in carbon fiber tech. I'm sure GM has done the same in the run up for the ZR1. Who knows? In 10 years carbon fiber may be no more exotic than aluminum or magnesium. Two metals, I might add, that my 5 year old truck has in surprising quantities.
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On a related note more pertinent to where the weight savings will come from, just recently Toyota has invested heavily in carbon fiber tech. I'm sure GM has done the same in the run up for the ZR1. Who knows? In 10 years carbon fiber may be no more exotic than aluminum or magnesium. Two metals, I might add, that my 5 year old truck has in surprising quantities.
It's coming, have no doubts.
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From: Jersey Shore
What happend to this rumored shortage of carbon fiber? And aluminum is a much easier material to work with then CF is. You dont have to coat aluminum in an epoxy, and you sure as hell dont need to put it in an oven to heat for long periods of time for the epoxy to settle in.
My Maxx has a lot of aluminum in it as well. The roof and rear hatch are aluminum. Sucked when I was trying to stick my XM antena to something, but cool none the less. GM has used a lot of aluminum recently.
As for the fiberglass leaf springs, that is true that they are overall lighter. I do think that with a coil over suspension, it would make it easier to adjust suspesnsion tuning, increasing individual spring rates instead of worrying about one large leaf spring no?
Id like to see a 300lb lighter C7 keeping about the same dimentions with a 400hp V8, and keeping the C6 brakes on it. A C6, driven nicely with a 6spd manual or auto could probably manage 30mpg. Cut 300lbs off that? Not like Corvette is big dent in GM's overall CAFE scores, it would be nice to say that GM has a 400hp, 35mpg non hyrbid sports car that does 0-60 in 4 seconds for 45k?
My Maxx has a lot of aluminum in it as well. The roof and rear hatch are aluminum. Sucked when I was trying to stick my XM antena to something, but cool none the less. GM has used a lot of aluminum recently.
As for the fiberglass leaf springs, that is true that they are overall lighter. I do think that with a coil over suspension, it would make it easier to adjust suspesnsion tuning, increasing individual spring rates instead of worrying about one large leaf spring no?
Id like to see a 300lb lighter C7 keeping about the same dimentions with a 400hp V8, and keeping the C6 brakes on it. A C6, driven nicely with a 6spd manual or auto could probably manage 30mpg. Cut 300lbs off that? Not like Corvette is big dent in GM's overall CAFE scores, it would be nice to say that GM has a 400hp, 35mpg non hyrbid sports car that does 0-60 in 4 seconds for 45k?
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From: All around
I'm not an insider at all - but I just can't see all this doom & gloom. Cars will get more expensive [obviously], but that doesnt mean GM wont sell the same stuff its selling now.
...Imagine GM's current CAFE rating...
What happens if the 2.9L diesel gets stuck in the 1500 trucks?
What happens when the 2.9L diesel goes in the CTS?
What happens if GM starts putting diesel 4s into smaller cars? (The Lupo diesel in Europe, for example)
What if GM makes some of the "super minis" they showed a couple years ago - espicially with diesels?
What if GM makes more or all the 4 cylinders, V6s and V8s Direct Injection?
What happens to GM's CAFE rating when the Volt and plug-in Vue come out?
What happens to GM's CAFE rating when the dual-mode hybrid starts increasing in production?
What if GM moves more and more of its fleet to "mild-hybrid" status?
.........
Those are all future possibilities, some more than others. There isnt a single thing in there that will HURT their CAFE rating aside from some new gas-guzzling (low volume) V8 cars and the ZR1, which gets mentioned separate because it deserves it.
I'm not saying its going to be a walk in the park, but GM has a whole laundry list of things that will make their CAFE rating better - perhaps a LOT better, and those keep getting ignored for some of the "doom & gloom". Cars are going to get more expensive to own and operate, just like they are already in the UK, but I dont think its going to be the end of the world.
...Espicially if Camaro moves to a lighter, smaller, and more nimble RWD platform.
But for my hopes and dreams of G8 Sportwagon - its over.
...Imagine GM's current CAFE rating...
What happens if the 2.9L diesel gets stuck in the 1500 trucks?
What happens when the 2.9L diesel goes in the CTS?
What happens if GM starts putting diesel 4s into smaller cars? (The Lupo diesel in Europe, for example)
What if GM makes some of the "super minis" they showed a couple years ago - espicially with diesels?
What if GM makes more or all the 4 cylinders, V6s and V8s Direct Injection?
What happens to GM's CAFE rating when the Volt and plug-in Vue come out?
What happens to GM's CAFE rating when the dual-mode hybrid starts increasing in production?
What if GM moves more and more of its fleet to "mild-hybrid" status?
.........
Those are all future possibilities, some more than others. There isnt a single thing in there that will HURT their CAFE rating aside from some new gas-guzzling (low volume) V8 cars and the ZR1, which gets mentioned separate because it deserves it.
I'm not saying its going to be a walk in the park, but GM has a whole laundry list of things that will make their CAFE rating better - perhaps a LOT better, and those keep getting ignored for some of the "doom & gloom". Cars are going to get more expensive to own and operate, just like they are already in the UK, but I dont think its going to be the end of the world.
...Espicially if Camaro moves to a lighter, smaller, and more nimble RWD platform.
But for my hopes and dreams of G8 Sportwagon - its over.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Foo. Innovation and invention are today at the fastest pace in the history of mankind. The next decade will bring some pretty incredible new technology. The 2018 Chevy lineup will fully leverage this, and I believe there will be cool new Camaros and Corvettes being released for as long as the American public demands them. (Basically, like, forever ).
).Engineers like performance cars too. Therefore I see them continuing to develop badass musclecars in Detroit, regardless of CAFE.
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From: The Golden State
Ya bet! 
Yes. However, my understanding is that it will be a unibody using Kappa suspension and driveline components, engineered to accept V6s.
I gotta stronly disagree with you on this one Will.
Here's how I see it. The new 3.6 direct injected V6 has just made V8 engines in regular sporty passenger cars obsolete. It produces as much horsepower as the 5.3 V8 (which isn't all that much less than the LS1), yet is lighter, gets better fuel economy, and doesn't need as much weight-adding engineering as a 425+ horse V8 powered Camaro.
Instead of a car nearing the 2 ton mark, we'd have a car that might weigh, pulling a number out of a hat, 3400-3500 pounds. It would no doubt handle better, get better fuel economy, and would accelerate at least as hard as an LS1 Camaro, and quite possible a 425 horse 5th gen. We wouldn't be able to go 170 mph, but I don't think anyone would miss it assuming the car did at least 155.
Camaro is a volume model. Although the V8 is most certainly not going to die, I don't expect it to be available on volume models without massive surcharges or restrictions in another decade.
GM's DI V6 is the opening shot in regulating the V8 engine to Corvettes and luxury cars. And it's not stopping there. Ford's new TwinForce (or whatever they're calling it now) V6 is going to likely put out at least 350 horsepower while producing much better fuel economy than any V8 putting out that much.
When Camaro has adapted to the times, it's survived and prospered. When Camaro tried to ignore the market and reality, it withered and died. I feel Camaro is too important of a name to die because of something as cosmetic as a V8, as long as it's RWD, has manual transmissions, looks great, and performs like a Camaro should.
I passed a new Toyota Yaris on my way here to Kinkos (my computer's down). It looked great, and was the same size as Chevy's mini-cars from last year's New York show.
After voting, Bob Lutz revealed that the cars weren't planned for US production, but they "might" come here next decade "if" studies showed the market wanted them. Yes... I thought it was pretty ridiculous myself.
GM isn't a company that moves without being forced to. but when they are, they tend to do a great job.
When Chevy finally does get a Toyota Yaris competitor (before "sometime next decade"), we'll start seeing how the sales of that car made GM's kneejerk decision to kill off the RWD Impala over a mere 1 mpg difference was silly.
Hardly.
If there's a market, there will be things to buy.
Personally, and I'm going to be the snob here, I would rather not see an official 6th Generation of Camaro if it means no V8 option in the line. I know I know, a DI V6 could be quite potent, especially in a smaller, lighter architecture.....but the purist in me says "no way". Call it something else.
Here's how I see it. The new 3.6 direct injected V6 has just made V8 engines in regular sporty passenger cars obsolete. It produces as much horsepower as the 5.3 V8 (which isn't all that much less than the LS1), yet is lighter, gets better fuel economy, and doesn't need as much weight-adding engineering as a 425+ horse V8 powered Camaro.
Instead of a car nearing the 2 ton mark, we'd have a car that might weigh, pulling a number out of a hat, 3400-3500 pounds. It would no doubt handle better, get better fuel economy, and would accelerate at least as hard as an LS1 Camaro, and quite possible a 425 horse 5th gen. We wouldn't be able to go 170 mph, but I don't think anyone would miss it assuming the car did at least 155.
Camaro is a volume model. Although the V8 is most certainly not going to die, I don't expect it to be available on volume models without massive surcharges or restrictions in another decade.
GM's DI V6 is the opening shot in regulating the V8 engine to Corvettes and luxury cars. And it's not stopping there. Ford's new TwinForce (or whatever they're calling it now) V6 is going to likely put out at least 350 horsepower while producing much better fuel economy than any V8 putting out that much.
When Camaro has adapted to the times, it's survived and prospered. When Camaro tried to ignore the market and reality, it withered and died. I feel Camaro is too important of a name to die because of something as cosmetic as a V8, as long as it's RWD, has manual transmissions, looks great, and performs like a Camaro should.
After voting, Bob Lutz revealed that the cars weren't planned for US production, but they "might" come here next decade "if" studies showed the market wanted them. Yes... I thought it was pretty ridiculous myself.
GM isn't a company that moves without being forced to. but when they are, they tend to do a great job.
When Chevy finally does get a Toyota Yaris competitor (before "sometime next decade"), we'll start seeing how the sales of that car made GM's kneejerk decision to kill off the RWD Impala over a mere 1 mpg difference was silly.
If there's a market, there will be things to buy.
Last edited by guionM; Jan 22, 2008 at 02:51 PM.
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It's funny though about that car. It was a 3400 lbs coupe, 4.8s 0-60, 3.2 inline 6, fun fast revered expensive and loved by the press.
Why can't GM make a car like this, more than 8 years after its intro?
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Also, I'm not so sure with all the crash standards Alpha will have to comply with, that it'll be a light weight either. But lighter than the alternative.
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Unless the government effectively kills the market.
Quite honestly, I don't see a V8-less Camaro going over all that well with the community. Wouldn't necessarily be GM's fault, it just "is what it is". Could Mustang survive? An interesting question.
Quite honestly, I don't see a V8-less Camaro going over all that well with the community. Wouldn't necessarily be GM's fault, it just "is what it is". Could Mustang survive? An interesting question.
