transam8

I'm curious, what generation f-body do you think was the better OVERALL car then as far as performance, handling, everyday driving, fuel efficiency, build quality(although still not so great), etc... The first gen's(my favorite btw) had decent power(by net hp ratings), and the Z/28's even handled pretty well too. The second gen's follow the formula of the 1st at least until the performance started to go south. The 3rd gen handled quite well, but lacked the grunt, as did most cars in that time period. So this would lead to the conclusion that the 4th gens were the best overall f-body. The 4th gen was able to combine all of these things (performace, handling, creature comforts etc into one relatively inexpensive package.

-Mike

Z28Wilson

THANK YOU! Not a flame, but when I ask the question of what makes the 3rd Gen the best overall F-body, the response from 3rd Genners is basically "because it just is." They point to styling and handling, although I have to believe that if the 3rd Gen did handle better the only place you might be able to tell is on a road course. There are MANY more things the 4th Gen did better. Facts are facts.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

IZ28

IMO the Third is best overall. They were cars that were accepted by the public and not ignored. There are some advantages a newer car is gonna have and thats it, it doesn't make them the best overall. No1 ever even felt that way until there was the LS1. IMO the best overall F-Body you could get is the later L98 G92 cars. You got it all, the great Camaro/musclecar looks, power, (low RPM TQ) incredible handling, braking, better thought out interior and windsheild design, you can work on them, actual steel, they use a real SBC, sound better, lots of engine and gear combinations, not to mention they sold like crazy, and are LIKED by MANY. Those are all things the 4th lost/do not have, except braking which you expect to be better, but the Thirds do that nicely too. What does the 4th Gen have besides slightly upgraded things?? Lets see....the LS1, the usual answer. A fast engine no doubt, but it doesn't feel like it. Both Gens have their rattles so I don't wanna hear that, most cars like this do but take care of the car and tighten things and you won't have them on either. My 89 RS feels like it takes turns nicer than my friends 35th SS. His 84 Z28 is the handler. (its faster too, not stock ) An IROC-Z28's .92 G's and lower ride would make that thing look stupid. The 1/4 mile would be different though.


[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 12, 2002).]

IZ28

Production 82-92

Camaro
1982: 189,747- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1983: 154,831- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1984: 261,591- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1985: 180,018- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1986: 192,219
1987: 137,760
1988: 96,275
1989: 110,739
1990: 34,896
1991: 100,838- beats M*****g without needing Firebirds sales
1992: 70,007

Firebird
1982: 116,364
1983: 74,884
1984: 128,304
1985: 95,880
1986: 110,465
1987: 88,612
1988: 62,445
1989: 64,409
1990: 20,553
1991: 51,184
1992: 27,569

F-Body Total
1982: 306,111- Beats M*****g
1983: 229,715- Beats M*****g
1984: 389,895- Beats M*****g
1985: 275,898- Beats M*****g
1986: 302,684- Beats M*****g
1987: 226,372- Beats M*****g
1988: 158,720
1989: 175,148
1990: 55,422
1991: 152,022- Beats M*****g
1992: 97,576- Beats M*****g

M*****g Totals
1982: 130,418
1983: 120,873
1984: 141,482
1985: 156,514
1986: 224,410
1987: 159,145
1988: 211,225- F-Body lost
1989: 209,769- F-Body lost
1990: 128,189- F-Body lost
1991: 98,737
1992: 79,280


[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 18, 2002).]

jrp4uc

Sales make the Third gens better? You could argue that's because it was softer and appealed to the mass public more (see present day Mustang versus Fbody). Doesn't mean it's better. I bet there are just as many people who don't care for the 3rd gen's looks, just as you don't like the 4th's--myself included. Performance is not even a question.

Of course, I could sum up my whole case for the 4th gen with the name, "David Hasselhoff."

2K1SunsetSS

I was thinking about what it would take just for styling for me to like the 5th gen over the 4th gen. I can honestly say it will be a very hard thing to over come because I really like the 4th gen.

And yes in a few years when I could have afforded one again I would have bought another one.

All I have to say is just with styling, IT BETTER BE GOOD!!!! And as far as HP #'s they better be on the ball.

Tom

Z28Wilson

IZ28, I knew sales would be your biggest point. Raw sales numbers are great and all, but when considering an overall "better" car it's hard to argue against the 4th Gen! Some of the points you make would seem to contradict your points. For example:

-An all-steel body makes the 3rd Gen better? Why? I think ding-resistant doors is certainly a plus for the 4th Gen.
-A "real" SBC? Umm, ok. If you'd really rather have a "true" SBC that makes at least 100 less HP and burns more fuel, be my guest. I doubt that makes too much difference to most people though.
-The L98 "feels" faster...I questioned your opinion on this before. I don't really understand what's so great about the "feeling" of going faster when you're seeing LS1, or even GT tail lights.

When I consider what is the "better" overall car, I go deeper than sales in different eras or subjective styling opinions and look at all the little things that were improved in the '93+ models.

-Besides obvious powertrain improvements, how about optional traction control? How about standard 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS?

-What about a dashboard that doesn't crack to hell with age? Remember I have owned both gens and my 3rd Gen dash, as much as I tried to take care of it, developed many cracks.

-How about the T-top seals being vastly improved? 4th Gen T-tops do not leak nearly as much. Road and wind noise are also noticably reduced.

-The fabric quality on the seats is much higher, and the seats are more supportive IMO. My 3rd Gen's seats developed many rips and tears just from normal use. My 4th Gen is 8 years old now and the interior still looks as though it's brand new. Going back to the dash, the materials used are noticably better not just there but throughout the whole interior. Certainly still room for improvement though.

-Improved stock stereo systems.
-Improved T-top stowage.
-Tighter, more sporty steering feel.
-Dual airbags.

And I'm sure I could come up with many more, however this post is probably long enough.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

IZ28

I didn't make sales the focus, did you read the entire post before that 1?? Funny how you say all these things Third Gens have mine doesn't and no1 I know does either. Its called taking care of a car?! No matter what, the 4th Gen is the Gen that put the F-Body on hiatus and took it away after 3 Gens of great sales and interest. Dash cracks here?? Nope. Dent resistent. Whoo Hooo. If you like a cheap feel and look like 4ths have and something not as strong as metal and stuff, OK. My T-Top seals don't leak from 89. And yes I'd rather have a real SBC. And yes I'd rather have the feel of Torque. Styling might be opinion, but 90% of people will think the Thirds look better, maybe the best looking F-Body of all time. (which I agree with) Interior?? You mean the boring everday car look is nice in a Camaro?? When you get in a Third its like being in a real musclecar with the racelike feature and gauges. I've been waiting for a 5th Gen since the 4th came out. I knew it was gonna be the way it is the 1st time I saw/went for a ride in them.


[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 12, 2002).]

transam8

I would hardly call cars that can run 13 second slips a boring everyday car.
I would also call a car with around 350(verses 245) horsepower from the factory a muscle car. Then you say that the 4th gen doesn't have anything the 3rd gen doesn't have, except for a few updated things. Does this not mean that the 4th gen is the better OVERALL car? I'm also curious as to where you get the numbers that 90% of people don't like the looks of 4th gens as much as 3rd gens? Was there a national poll that I missed? I mean a 4th gen car would kill a L-98 car in just about any kind of test you could put it through. Don't get me wrong, I love the 3rd gens, and even hope to add an Iroc or GTA to my collection someday,but the 4th gen bashing is just getting a little old. It only makes sense that the newest model would be the best OVERALL car. And as far as the 4th gen being responsible for the death of the f-body, this is simply rediculous. Many factors contributed to it (lack of advertisement, lack of updates, etc). The main reason is really that the buying public no longer favors muscle cars. Imports and SUV's have taken over as the "thing to have". There is a very limited number of people who want a rwd V-8 sporty car.

-Mike

IZ28

Well, I disagree with your entire post. I am not a person that talks on just opinion. I know alot of performance car crazy people and go to car shows and cruise nights ALOT. So I talk with many people that own all kinds of different cars about these subjects. I said the int. is boring. The ext. looks stupid. Overall, consists of alot of things. Not just acceleration and a traction helper. The 4th Gen didn't sell because no1 really liked them. No1 today really likes them, except a minority obviously. Most I know bought them for the Camaro name and RWD V8. But then again, most I know went and bought used Thirds instead.

jrp4uc

The third gens nearly developed into the exact same scenario, or worse--the FWD GM80. People are quick to forget, but there almost wasn't a fourth gen.

I also call foul on the "90% third gen popularity" statistic. The best ever? Are you serious?? If any one particular generation would be considered timeless and most popular, it'd be the first; the fourth is without question the best overall. Fourth gens are boring? What is the ho-hum, squared-off third gen? Doesn't exactly grab my attention. Oh well, I guess I'm in the 10%.

Z28Wilson

This is a repetitive pattern. I give calm, logical reasons why the 4th Gen is a better car OVERALL and the response is "3rd is better because it looks better and sold more." Nevermind the fact that no one even considered a 4 cylinder import as being cool in the 80's, not to mention huge SUV's. Believe me, I'm really restraining myself from bashing the 3rd Gen cars because I do like them. I'm telling you though, you may want to check out a Stang site or two to see the prevailing opinion on 3rd Gen Camaros, fair or not.

Uhh, ok, I give up. *throws arms up in air* Time to go put my 4th gen in the crusher since it obviously is not worthy of wearing the Camaro name. After all, it "looks stupid" and has a "boring interior," whatever that means.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

[This message has been edited by Z28Wilson (edited July 12, 2002).]

IZ28

As for that FWD thing, they didn't do that did they?? It was another of GM's stupid ideas that didn't make sense and they realized it. I mean, why would they?? The car was selling great and beating out the M*****g in every way. I'd say the most popular will always be the 1sts and Thirds. They have the design that people like which is classic and has a look that said Camaro and will always be liked. We had a post about this a while back. They have a blend of roundness and lines, you know lines, like a musclecar?! Not round, like an import. Yup lots of people really like the new Chrysler....I mean Camaro. IMO you are the 10%.

A good example: This dude I know in town, a car crazy dude that goes through cars like detailers go through wax. He has had a 1st Gen, 2nd Gen, Corvette, a Chevy truck, an import, a 4th Gen and a Third Gen. I asked him 1 day what his favorite was and his reply was "the Third Gen dude, and every1 I know said it was the coolest and nicest car I've had." Then he says "I just sold that 94 Z28 (which he and others never liked much) because I was looking for an IROC 350. Well he then goes on to tell me that he could not find an IROC-Z that he wanted for sale, so, he went and bought a new M*****g. Doh. That is something that we are all still surprised at. He actually would rather choose the F**d over having a 4th Gen. This is a person that always liked Chevrolet. And I've seen this routine and 1's like it time and again.



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 13, 2002).]

IZ28

I'm way ahead of you. I have and most are cool with them. LOL, we have them on ThirdGen.Org!! They actually like them. They think 4th Gens don't look good also and say stuff more than we do about them. (like the Chrysler stuff and int. BS) Although they admit they are fast, but alot also feel thats all they've got.



[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited July 12, 2002).]

Z28Wilson

C'mon dude, you've never heard the "Mullet-mobile" nickname?

Anyway I'm done with this, it's just not worth it. To say "no one likes the 4th Gen" is ignorance beyond my comprehension. In that small corner of the world that you live in and on 3rdgen.org that may be true. However, the world is a big place my friend. Come to Detroit and I'll show you 4th Gen heaven.

------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.