How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
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From: Toronto, ON Canada
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
There will be more things to "worry" about than Ford's Mustang. There are a lot of cars coming out in the next 4 years that will most certainly lure buyers. GM will have to make their car sell. This will take into account styling of the car, ergonomics and performance. With Magnum SRT8 and 300C SRT running around, as well as Charger and who knows what else from who knows who else, you cannot have a mediocre performing Camaro.
Fine, perhaps the mainstream V8 Camaro will not be THAT much performance, GM figures, and since there are only a small percentage of real HP nuts out there, we will offer them more limited SS/Z28. Of course, I will not be surpirsed at that point if there will be a lot more orders for the top Camaro than originally anticipated, provided the price will not go north of $30 - $32 K (or $40 CDN).
And now I am also thinking. We are in 2004. We most likely will not hear anything from GM about *Camaro* until the end of 2005 or beginning 2006, although we might hear plenty about some sort of 2 DR coupe. Still, that coupe will not be released until late 2006 or even 2007. That is at best 2 years from now, most likely 3. Who knows what will change by then.
Fine, perhaps the mainstream V8 Camaro will not be THAT much performance, GM figures, and since there are only a small percentage of real HP nuts out there, we will offer them more limited SS/Z28. Of course, I will not be surpirsed at that point if there will be a lot more orders for the top Camaro than originally anticipated, provided the price will not go north of $30 - $32 K (or $40 CDN).
And now I am also thinking. We are in 2004. We most likely will not hear anything from GM about *Camaro* until the end of 2005 or beginning 2006, although we might hear plenty about some sort of 2 DR coupe. Still, that coupe will not be released until late 2006 or even 2007. That is at best 2 years from now, most likely 3. Who knows what will change by then.
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Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 781
From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
I think Camaro has less competion in the future than you think. What they RX8 and similar cars dont go head to head with the Camaro. They are a side step. If Camaro can offer the same fit and finish with out the compromise that the 4th gen and sn95 stang had they will take buyers from other non direct competitors. The GTO will have the heavy competion with the 300C Coupe and Nissan Skyline. Isnt Lexus going to make a Coupe out of the IS 300? maybe even a V8 in that car?
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Hou,TX
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by ProudPony
I am going to play Devil's advocate...
I am going to stick my neck out here and make a prediction, not based on any fact other than words spoken in news articles in the auto industry.
I think we are going to see a turn AWAY from horsepower generation in the next 3-5 years. We are going to see more in the way of weight reduction and economy. I also think we are going to see more in the way of alternative fuels and hybrids - YES, EVEN IN PONYCARS.
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Chevy release the next gen with both V8's rated at 400 and under - more like 370 and 320. I also think the Mustang is going to do the same - GT at 300-320, and Mach 1 or Boss at 350-370. I doubt (even hope) that we will ever see a basic, common, plain ol' Ford Mustang or Chevy Camaro bust the 400hp mark. I think that ground should remain hallowed, and only open to pricey collectible type SE's like Cobras and maybe Z/28's. Keep the gas-guzzler tax, luxury tax, Limited Availability gouging, and exhorbitant insurance costs for the "rich guys", and keep the common cars (that us common guys can buy) affordable. BUT, make the common cars easy to mod, so that those of us who want to bump up engine performance to 450 or 500 can do so on our own and for much less than $20k in mods too.
Which brings me to the topic of my closing statement...
REMEMBER - HORSEPOWER DOES NOT GUARANTEE A SALES SUCCESS!!!
The 5th gen, DC2 Mustang, Chevelle, Charger, Magnum, and any other RWD V8 needs to be APPEALING to the masses and SELL!!! Most people just aren't gonna care if the car has 260, 300, 340, or 380 horses - as long as it has a V8, available manual, RWD, good looks (somewhat aggressive too, not dull and bland), and easy to maintain/modify to suit their personality. To me, the last points are FAR more important to the success of the car than it's HP rating.
Fair for us to speculate, especially in this forum, but please don't get so wrapped up in "topping the Mustang" or "being slower than a Camaro" or we might end up with another 4th gen scenario. Let's get a 5th gen out that sells good first, eh? We'll do the racing at the track later - mods allowed!
I am going to stick my neck out here and make a prediction, not based on any fact other than words spoken in news articles in the auto industry.
I think we are going to see a turn AWAY from horsepower generation in the next 3-5 years. We are going to see more in the way of weight reduction and economy. I also think we are going to see more in the way of alternative fuels and hybrids - YES, EVEN IN PONYCARS.
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Chevy release the next gen with both V8's rated at 400 and under - more like 370 and 320. I also think the Mustang is going to do the same - GT at 300-320, and Mach 1 or Boss at 350-370. I doubt (even hope) that we will ever see a basic, common, plain ol' Ford Mustang or Chevy Camaro bust the 400hp mark. I think that ground should remain hallowed, and only open to pricey collectible type SE's like Cobras and maybe Z/28's. Keep the gas-guzzler tax, luxury tax, Limited Availability gouging, and exhorbitant insurance costs for the "rich guys", and keep the common cars (that us common guys can buy) affordable. BUT, make the common cars easy to mod, so that those of us who want to bump up engine performance to 450 or 500 can do so on our own and for much less than $20k in mods too.
Which brings me to the topic of my closing statement...
REMEMBER - HORSEPOWER DOES NOT GUARANTEE A SALES SUCCESS!!!
The 5th gen, DC2 Mustang, Chevelle, Charger, Magnum, and any other RWD V8 needs to be APPEALING to the masses and SELL!!! Most people just aren't gonna care if the car has 260, 300, 340, or 380 horses - as long as it has a V8, available manual, RWD, good looks (somewhat aggressive too, not dull and bland), and easy to maintain/modify to suit their personality. To me, the last points are FAR more important to the success of the car than it's HP rating.
Fair for us to speculate, especially in this forum, but please don't get so wrapped up in "topping the Mustang" or "being slower than a Camaro" or we might end up with another 4th gen scenario. Let's get a 5th gen out that sells good first, eh? We'll do the racing at the track later - mods allowed!
HP is necessary but not sufficient for sales success.
The HP war will continue because technology allows it to. And HP does sell. Why is an AMG E55 $85K and an E320 $40K? Given a a good car to start with, HP does make the difference.
I doubt any of the Ford stang variants outside of the SC'd Cobra will make 400+ and probably the Camaro Z/28 6.0. So no worries for you there. UNLESS the current Cobra engine finds its way into the next Mach1 or something. It's a 430 horse motor. I said it before. IF the '05 stang GT is only a 300hp car, the Ford fans will walk away in droves.
There's one player that will NOT back down from any HP war thus forcing the other 2 to keep up. DC and the German freaks. We all know the Viper is coming back with a Hemi V10 that'll bring it into Ford GT territory and deep fry the next Z06. The 6.1 Hemi cars are a notice to try and keep up. We're headed for 400hp daily driver stockers for the masses.
I'll tell you what's going out of style. It's modding. The more advanced the drivetrains become coupled with the warranty-***** to keep costs down is actually going to drive factory performance to a premium. Lemme ask you what exactly are you going to do on your brand new '05 stang GT? Just take a look at the Ram Hemi boards. There's almost nothing those guys can do to increase performance.
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Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 781
From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
It takes a few years to for tuners to figure out a PCM. When I was modding my first Ls1 there was only 1 or 2 people who could tune a LS1 car. I had to go to Oklahoma to get the car Dybotuned. Now there are at least 5 peole in the Chicagoland area that can tune a LS1 car. The Hemis are having problems because they are MAP only cars and you have to adjust the tune for everything you do. In 2 years it will be the same as a Ls1. Kenne Belle has a S/C kit for them already........ People offer ported heads. With just a touch up the Hemi heads flow better than most ls6 ported "big valve" heads intended for large bore GEN III motors.
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Posts: 11,157
From: Nashville, TN area
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Heh...some of the predictions here for 2007 (or whatever) is no more valid than trying to predict the weather for the same year.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,029
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by hp_nut
HP is necessary but not sufficient for sales success.
The HP war will continue because technology allows it to. And HP does sell. Why is an AMG E55 $85K and an E320 $40K? Given a a good car to start with, HP does make the difference.
I doubt any of the Ford stang variants outside of the SC'd Cobra will make 400+ and probably the Camaro Z/28 6.0. So no worries for you there. UNLESS the current Cobra engine finds its way into the next Mach1 or something. It's a 430 horse motor. I said it before. IF the '05 stang GT is only a 300hp car, the Ford fans will walk away in droves.
There's one player that will NOT back down from any HP war thus forcing the other 2 to keep up. DC and the German freaks. We all know the Viper is coming back with a Hemi V10 that'll bring it into Ford GT territory and deep fry the next Z06. The 6.1 Hemi cars are a notice to try and keep up. We're headed for 400hp daily driver stockers for the masses.
I'll tell you what's going out of style. It's modding. The more advanced the drivetrains become coupled with the warranty-***** to keep costs down is actually going to drive factory performance to a premium. Lemme ask you what exactly are you going to do on your brand new '05 stang GT? Just take a look at the Ram Hemi boards. There's almost nothing those guys can do to increase performance.
The HP war will continue because technology allows it to. And HP does sell. Why is an AMG E55 $85K and an E320 $40K? Given a a good car to start with, HP does make the difference.
I doubt any of the Ford stang variants outside of the SC'd Cobra will make 400+ and probably the Camaro Z/28 6.0. So no worries for you there. UNLESS the current Cobra engine finds its way into the next Mach1 or something. It's a 430 horse motor. I said it before. IF the '05 stang GT is only a 300hp car, the Ford fans will walk away in droves.
There's one player that will NOT back down from any HP war thus forcing the other 2 to keep up. DC and the German freaks. We all know the Viper is coming back with a Hemi V10 that'll bring it into Ford GT territory and deep fry the next Z06. The 6.1 Hemi cars are a notice to try and keep up. We're headed for 400hp daily driver stockers for the masses.
I'll tell you what's going out of style. It's modding. The more advanced the drivetrains become coupled with the warranty-***** to keep costs down is actually going to drive factory performance to a premium. Lemme ask you what exactly are you going to do on your brand new '05 stang GT? Just take a look at the Ram Hemi boards. There's almost nothing those guys can do to increase performance.
If you attended the 40th anniversary of the Mustang this year then you know that a 300 HP Mustang GT isn't going to drive Ford people away in droves. While *some* may be disappointed that it ONLY has 300 advertised HP, many are very happy with the number. Unlike some of the cars that are currently out (GTO, 300C, Magnum) and those that are coming (Camaro, Charger, etc...) the GT is a mass produced vehicle meant to sell well over 70,000 units for the 2005 year model. In fact, Ford has been surprised at the higher number of 2005 GT orders compared to 2005 V6 orders so far this year.
Another fact is that the aftermarket continues to show growth for all models of Mustang: V6, N/A V8 (GT and Mach1) and Cobra. The Mustang is going to be a big hit this year at SEMA. Just wait and see what you'll be able to do to your 2005 Mustang GT.
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From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by PaperTarget
In fact, Ford has been surprised at the higher number of 2005 GT orders compared to 2005 V6 orders so far this year.
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From: Maumee, OH
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
This may sound a little like shooting ourselves in the foot, but I really don't want the Camaro to be this mass produced vehicle. I thought the idea was that the 5th gen Camaro would be built on a platform that was used by multiple cars. Thereby, leaving the Camaro to still fulfill the niche and still be profitable all at the same time. As much as I want a 5th gen, I don't want to see one around every corner like I do a Cavalier or Sunfire.
I don't want it to be an over-engineered POS, either. It needs to be more refined than any other pony car up to this point, but also needs to retain the power and spirit of the pony cars. To those that would be scared away by horsepower, I say, flee for your lives... buy something else. For the rest of us "radicals" it will be just what the doctor ordered.
Do not water-down this car to please the masses. I'm sure that sentiment will **** off the "new Camaro no matter what" crowd, but if it's not a Camaro, and you know what I mean by that, then I don't want it. Let it stay dead if the fate of Camaro is to be a lemming-mobile.
I don't want it to be an over-engineered POS, either. It needs to be more refined than any other pony car up to this point, but also needs to retain the power and spirit of the pony cars. To those that would be scared away by horsepower, I say, flee for your lives... buy something else. For the rest of us "radicals" it will be just what the doctor ordered.
Do not water-down this car to please the masses. I'm sure that sentiment will **** off the "new Camaro no matter what" crowd, but if it's not a Camaro, and you know what I mean by that, then I don't want it. Let it stay dead if the fate of Camaro is to be a lemming-mobile.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,769
From: cinci
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by RoMaD
This may sound a little like shooting ourselves in the foot, but I really don't want the Camaro to be this mass produced vehicle. I thought the idea was that the 5th gen Camaro would be built on a platform that was used by multiple cars. Thereby, leaving the Camaro to still fulfill the niche and still be profitable all at the same time. As much as I want a 5th gen, I don't want to see one around every corner like I do a Cavalier or Sunfire.
I don't want it to be an over-engineered POS, either. It needs to be more refined than any other pony car up to this point, but also needs to retain the power and spirit of the pony cars. To those that would be scared away by horsepower, I say, flee for your lives... buy something else. For the rest of us "radicals" it will be just what the doctor ordered.
Do not water-down this car to please the masses. I'm sure that sentiment will **** off the "new Camaro no matter what" crowd, but if it's not a Camaro, and you know what I mean by that, then I don't want it. Let it stay dead if the fate of Camaro is to be a lemming-mobile.
I don't want it to be an over-engineered POS, either. It needs to be more refined than any other pony car up to this point, but also needs to retain the power and spirit of the pony cars. To those that would be scared away by horsepower, I say, flee for your lives... buy something else. For the rest of us "radicals" it will be just what the doctor ordered.
Do not water-down this car to please the masses. I'm sure that sentiment will **** off the "new Camaro no matter what" crowd, but if it's not a Camaro, and you know what I mean by that, then I don't want it. Let it stay dead if the fate of Camaro is to be a lemming-mobile.
it means it's selling, people like it, and it makes seeing the "top model" 5th gen a lucky sight
the goal is to get as many of them produced and sold as possible
i'm all for that
i am with you though, do not water it down
if you look at the current mustang, it sells and isn't really watered down from what any mustang ever was
the camaro can do the same (sell) without being watered down imo
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Posts: 1,029
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by unvc92camarors
i actually do want to see just as many 5th gens as i see mustangs nowadays
it means it's selling, people like it, and it makes seeing the "top model" 5th gen a lucky sight
the goal is to get as many of them produced and sold as possible
i'm all for that
i am with you though, do not water it down
if you look at the current mustang, it sells and isn't really watered down from what any mustang ever was
the camaro can do the same (sell) without being watered down imo
it means it's selling, people like it, and it makes seeing the "top model" 5th gen a lucky sight
the goal is to get as many of them produced and sold as possible
i'm all for that
i am with you though, do not water it down
if you look at the current mustang, it sells and isn't really watered down from what any mustang ever was
the camaro can do the same (sell) without being watered down imo
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,029
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
I wouldn't be surprised at all. I may be way off base on this, but the V6 Mustang (or Camaro) doesn't seem like the type of car you go out and pre-order. I think those that want the secretary specials are content to wait till they start showing up on dealer lots. It's us gearheads that get excited about a new model and serve up the cash early for the performance variants.
Last edited by PaperTarget; Jul 22, 2004 at 04:27 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,313
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Hp_nut, I thought Ford was openly marketing the 05 to aftermarket companies/tuners?? I'm sure they realize the importance of modifications in the world of performance cars (how else would FRPP make money??) The performance aftermarket is a multi-billion dollar maket, and one Ford can't afford to ignore. So i doubt modifications will be difficult on the 05's.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 293
From: Hou,TX
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by PaperTarget
I disagree with much of what you've posted here, respectfully of course.
If you attended the 40th anniversary of the Mustang this year then you know that a 300 HP Mustang GT isn't going to drive Ford people away in droves. While *some* may be disappointed that it ONLY has 300 advertised HP, many are very happy with the number. Unlike some of the cars that are currently out (GTO, 300C, Magnum) and those that are coming (Camaro, Charger, etc...) the GT is a mass produced vehicle meant to sell well over 70,000 units for the 2005 year model. In fact, Ford has been surprised at the higher number of 2005 GT orders compared to 2005 V6 orders so far this year.
Another fact is that the aftermarket continues to show growth for all models of Mustang: V6, N/A V8 (GT and Mach1) and Cobra. The Mustang is going to be a big hit this year at SEMA. Just wait and see what you'll be able to do to your 2005 Mustang GT.
If you attended the 40th anniversary of the Mustang this year then you know that a 300 HP Mustang GT isn't going to drive Ford people away in droves. While *some* may be disappointed that it ONLY has 300 advertised HP, many are very happy with the number. Unlike some of the cars that are currently out (GTO, 300C, Magnum) and those that are coming (Camaro, Charger, etc...) the GT is a mass produced vehicle meant to sell well over 70,000 units for the 2005 year model. In fact, Ford has been surprised at the higher number of 2005 GT orders compared to 2005 V6 orders so far this year.
Another fact is that the aftermarket continues to show growth for all models of Mustang: V6, N/A V8 (GT and Mach1) and Cobra. The Mustang is going to be a big hit this year at SEMA. Just wait and see what you'll be able to do to your 2005 Mustang GT.
Well I went and tested whether stang fans have to have significant factory performance and HP.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=3552
I.... don't .... understand ... it.
These ... people? don't seem to care whether it makes 300 or 350. They are going to buy the '05. It could have 260 and be like the old GT and they'd buy it.
Some even claim this is the FIRST time 300 hp has ever been able to be had for so cheap.
It's as if everyone is upgrading from an '83 chevette.
WOW.
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Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
Re: How will a 5.3 5th gen compare to an LS1...and to Mustang GT?
Originally Posted by hp_nut
Well I went and tested whether stang fans have to have significant factory performance and HP.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=3552
I.... don't .... understand ... it.
These ... people? don't seem to care whether it makes 300 or 350. They are going to buy the '05. It could have 260 and be like the old GT and they'd buy it.
Some even claim this is the FIRST time 300 hp has ever been able to be had for so cheap.
It's as if everyone is upgrading from an '83 chevette.
WOW.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=3552
I.... don't .... understand ... it.
These ... people? don't seem to care whether it makes 300 or 350. They are going to buy the '05. It could have 260 and be like the old GT and they'd buy it.
Some even claim this is the FIRST time 300 hp has ever been able to be had for so cheap.
It's as if everyone is upgrading from an '83 chevette.
WOW.
Which goes along with my theory that Mustang fans will buy Mustangs no matter what is in them and are willing to pay just about anything to have special editions. Look at all the 60k Saleens and Roushs and Cobra R's that the Mustang fans buy when you can have a better total package elsewhere and still be faster. This is why Mustangs sell well, they just want the name and could care less what is in it.