I agree. BUT look at the hard heads your dealing with. We talk about this all the time. GM tells you what you want. At this point in time I don't see a new Camaro on the horizon. Rebaged GTO or not. Make it simple, (these guys are a little slow you know) so they can get it right. In my opinion if there will be another Camaro it must be the best one ever. I would rather have two models (base/Z28) than none. Also remember that Ford has all these different models because the are not starting from scratch. The Mustang is a 25 year old design and they have to do something to keep it fresh. Know one has any clue if there are going to be so many different models with the next Mustang. What ever you know is a rumor. So don't expect much.

 

I think that would have been a good start.

 

Lets refine this a bit more.

1. Z/28...the Camaro equivalent to the Z06. relatively limited production, not something people interested in comfort are going to buy. Light, nimble and fast as hell. Limited options available to keep weight down. V8 power of course

2. SS....a true GT/touring car. Perhaps as much HP as the Z/28, although I'd like to see the Z have unique power like the Z06 or at least a hotter cam...throw me a fricken bone here GM! Anyway, loaded with options, looks great, basically the top Camaro if you aren't interested in a street legal race car. V8 only.

3. Sport Coupe. Rather than just "Camaro", give it a model name too. Simple, clean lines. Competent power in a practical package. A fun, "sporty" car that is not intimidating to women or those who want a boulevard cruiser. V6 power, maybe an I4 if the market is right for it. All the options are available but can be ordered stripped down too for those that are budget concious. (wish list is an optional small displacement v8 to bridge the gap between entry level and true performance car. Not everyone is going to want the street terror Z28 and not all will want or be able to afford the SS to get into a v8 powered car.)

 

IMO, the next Camaro should be a relatively low volume evolution of the 4th gen, with shorter overhangs and better interior/fit and finish.. Keep the relatively long hood, long doors, and the low seating cue's.. don't try too hard to make it "civil"... If you want something civil and relaitvely fast, they should be looking at different cars.

Also, have like a $35,000 option for a 427 equipped ZL1 Camaro.. Sure its more than doubles the price (isn't that what the original ZL1 did anyways) and there will only be a a handful made.. but it'll help the put a "gleam" on the Camaro name, and give collectors and car enthusiasts something to talk about... It could be the car on the front cover of the car mags, the top car to "unlock" in video games, and in the far future, the performance #'s that everyone rememebers when they think, "Camaro". heh

 

I could live with that. Same motor...but maybe hotter cam for Z/28.

Ford pulls that off pretty effectively with the Mach1.
The 6 speed Mach1 motor is tuned with hotter cams, more compression and some other stuff. The A4 Mach 1 motor is tuned for less peak power but more low end torque mostly from it's different cams.

 

I have no doubt that Chevrolet will produce at least one Camaro model that will run with (or outrun) a Cobra, regardless as to the horsepower. Where Camaro has to seriously do it's magic is with the majority of people who aren't looking for a wepon of mass destruction on wheels.

Camaro desparately needs a mid range car that isn't boy-racer on the outside, and doesn't look like a base car on the inside (yes, I have the RS in mind). From a model lineup, I feel the Camaro of the late 70s got it right (base, RS, LT, & the Z28). Each car had it's own look (even though the RS was only cosmetic...just like the 4th gen), and 3 engines covered the field.


One thing I never considered regarding Mustang's multitude of V8s, is that only one comes as a "regular" Ford engine (Cobra is SVT, and Mach1 is basically Cobra's "old" engine... the new Cobra engine is iron topped, while the old was alumunum).

 

And people did look at different cars, and that is why Mustang out sold F body 2 to 1. When was the last time a sports car was a top seller? GM is a business and they are not going to cater to the minority, but rather the majority. If they do do a ZL1 car I think they should do it under the Trans Am badge to not exceed the Chevrolet Corvette. The only reason the Corvette didn't get cut also, is because the Corvette technology is what makes their trucks such a powerhouse and large seller. Corvette is the heart of GM, they can't have power struggle with in.

 

Wow Goody, I think that I disagree with you on a number of levels here buddy.

First off, I'm weary of this notion that Mustang succeeded where Camaro failed simply because Mustang had more percieved interior room. Maybe that was part of it, maybe not, but there are so many other more compelling reasons.

Sure the F-body had the LS1....and that was it's strongest point. Beyond that GM just let the program rot. Mustang had a number of appealing models at various price points. All products that people wanted to buy. If you wanted 17" inch wheels on a Camaro, it would cost you $30K+++++++++++++++++++++++,
not so with Mustang. Mustang went out of it's way to provide exciting and highly desirable niche models for it's (old and newly found) enthusiasts. As opposed to GM which took the Z/28....which is the triple distilled essence of Camaro heritage and DNA...and stripped it clean of any cache or desirability. I could go on, but there are so many reasons that are apparent to me that the Mustang succeeded where Camaro failed. Upright seating is way down on the list IMO.

Are you really proposing that if a ZL1 ever returns it should be a Trans Am. What's next, Super Duty Camaros?

Regarding Corvette, did you know that the F-body program and trucks pretty much financed the LS1 for the Corvette?

Not flaming you, just getting some things off my chest.

 

The Camaro also failed because it was big and unattractive. Also I can remember plenty of Mustang ad/commercials. I don't remember any Camaro or Firebird ads. An other thing is that if you ever have gone to a dealer most of the time they didn't have any of the hot models in stock. The funny thing is today I was driving down the street and a dealer has a brand new Z28 6spd in stock sitting in the front line. When did production end?

 

The LS1 4th gen was awesome, but when it wasn't a 1LE or a V8, it wasn't desirable. It was simply and engine in a well turning box (which I still love to this day). The V6 version needs to be desirable.

 

They still can't sell them.

BTW, that limited 427 idea was excellent.

 

I often wonder what GM's thoughts are on that.

 

wow, after sitting here for a good amount of time (and two tuna sandwiches) i must say im impressed with the civil and intelligent conversation. anyway, here is my .02$

after reading this, it seems that many people are preoccupied with the SS/Z28 thing. i think GM should go back to when my dad bought his first car ('70 camaro SS). base model, sportier SS, top Z/28. (the Z could be likened to the cobra in the fact that is pure performance with a price that adequatly fits that, and expected to be a limited production car. it doesnt actually have to put out similar performance numbers, that would just be a nice bonus )

who cares if they sell more SS's or z28's? if the Camaro sells 200k units regardless if its the base model or SS or z28, then mission accomplished!

anyway, all of this is for nothing if GM doesnt advertise. ProudPony commented on this in an earlier post i read, and i think it should again be brought back up. The camaro is never advertised, however the mustang is, as well as other cars. Look at Mitsubishi sponsoring 2F2F, that gave the Evo a lot of hype... Look at Bullit from back in the day, or any of the new pontiac or even toyota commercials. who wouldnt like to see a new camaro as the star of a movie? i sure as hell would LOVE that. or doing cool powerslides in the desert or 360's on the freeway?

its because of this lack of advertising that people dont respect, or care about the camaro. yes an LS1 z28 will outpower a new GT, but that doesnt matter to most people. y do u think a lot of kids drive 120hp civics? because they are cheap, easily modded and basically fun to drive. the car should be everything that was mentioned above me. it doesnt need tremendous power out of the factory, it just needs to be FUN, and have enthusiasm about it.

ive been on my fair share of import boards (being that i own one) and the majority of people there say positive things about the mustang, but mostly negative to the camaro (im sorry, everytime i say camaro i really mean Fbod)

y is this? if the new fbod can persuade the import guys (as well as everyone else) to look at what it has to offer and potentially steal sales not only from mustang, but also from the celica, civic, eclipse, wrx, etc than that would be great.

it seems that somewhere through the 80's, GM gave a half assed effort to the camaro, and it unfortunatly ended with the cars discontinuation. if the new camaro comes back with fresh styling, aggressive advertising,fun driveability (dont make it handel like a sled. which is the entire import communities main complaint. and YES the camaro does need to step it up in the handeling department. y would someone buy a 300hp camaro that handels like a boat when they can buy a 276hp Evo or 300hp Sti that handels like a charm? btw, my celica handels like a charm, and taking it through really tight turns at a pretty quick pace is pretty damn exciting too), and larger aftermarket, then i think it will do quite well.


also i just wanna thank you guys for reading, replying, and respecting the posts i have made here. although i dont own an Fbod (yet, soon tho) i dont feel like my posts are taken with a grain of salt. many import boards have flamed me for being there just because i dont own the car, even tho i may have an interest in them.

anywho, after all of this rambling, anyone have any thoughts?

 

very good post jadedst
its good to see a view from a person who's been on the import side

 

I too applaud everyone for keeping this conversation as professional as any I've ever seen.
Especially the F-bod owners, because we are really putting their cars on the table of scrutiny here - that's the essence of the thread, right? What was done wrong, and how it needs to be fixed when F5 comes to life. Kudos to all you guys

I have ony one additional comment to make at this point in the conversation...
I am amazed at the replies asking for "limited production" and "V8-only" Camaros. Where in the world are these comments coming from? No V6's? No base/entry models? No economy-minded grocery getters? If you don't want to entertain these variants of a new Camaro, then you may as well not expect another Camaro. For Pete's sake guys, half of Mustang sales are V6's!!! This provides VOLUME to the model, thereby reducing price/part made, and ultimately price/car made. In short, those cars help justify the model, and finance the rest of the "high-performers" like GT and Mach 1.

Another point, GM already has 2 cars with V8-only power - the Vette and GTO. Where's the successful market for another one? If anything, a pricey, super-hot, RWD, V8-powered Camaro would be competing directly with Corvette on the showroom floor. Guess which one will win?

I emplore you guys ignoring the base unit and V6 or even 4-bangers to rethink your positions. Honestly, another Camaro selling 20k units/year is not going to survive. Go for 100k units at least. Go for it all, or don't go for anything - let it lie.