Here's my .02 on the issues re: Camaro's successful return...

1) Ford didn't "compete" with the Camaro on a one-to-one basis - hence the performance clobbering for the last 8 years. Ford concentrated on giving the loyal buyers what they asked for. We all know the results. A new Camaro MUST offer several engine/tranny packages to suit the market - and being the fastest factory dog on the block only gives you bragging rights until the mods go on - maybe not worth it in the Big Picture.

2) Mustang offers a total of 8 different engine/drivetrain packages, embedded across 7 different body/trim packages - from the factory. And while you are on certain lots, you can peek at models from 5 or more different aftermarket tuners.
Many different people, many different tastes, many different offerings, all equal many more sales. A new Camaro MUST be configurable to those wanting to buy it - not the "here's what we think you want" mentality. Offer not only base, RS, and Z28 models, but equivalents to the Pony, Mystic, Laser red, Triple white, 7-up, Bullitt, Mach 1, and oodles of other limited edition Mustangs that keep hype and differentiation of the cars alive; i.e. "freshness" and "exclusivity" above blandness and commonality.

3) The GT owner doesn't hate the Cobra owner because his car was $10K more - often he is envious and complimentary. Likewise, the Cobra guy doesn't belittle the GT owner because his car is less refined or powerful - a Saturday afternoon and a Vortech kit can fix that. Why we all get along and don't practice "model-hatred" or "trim-tantrums" like SS/Z28 guys I just don't know. Maybe Chevy needs to take a HUGE poll via a website and/or dealers and find out what the vast majority wants to see as the top dog Camaro, then do it and get the pains over with. Many will like it, many will not, but it will be put to rest (kind of like when Ford killed the 5.0 in the Stangs for '96 - I thought WW-III would erupt! A tough call that pizzed-off a bunch of loyals, but it's all behind us now.)
Z/28 or SS - either way, put it to bed once and for all, and stop the infighting among your own GM-loyals for Pete's sake.

4) The Cobra is already a Vette-caliber competitive car - like it or not. Granted it doesn't offer refinement that is in the Vette, but it also costs $15k-$18k less too. Performance wise - each has their better areas - neither dominates. Need proof they are competitive models... do you really want me to start listing magazine comps between the '03 Cobra and the C5? (Now remeber, I'm the VENGEANT one who is always griping about how much the Cobra gets compared to everything under the sun from Vettes to Vipers!!! I have lists... )Here's Motor Trends article for starters (Vert vs. Vert). How 'bout the '03 Cobra coupe and the Z06? I've got those too. Heck, Johnny Hunkins did that comp right here in this very forum over a year ago - and many of you guys ripped him a new one over it - and all he did was tell what he saw and did in the car himself.

Ford has recently aimed the high-end Mustang developments explicitly at the Corvette - ref THIS ARTICLE on the FR500 Mustang project.
Said by Dan Davis, director, Ford Racing Technology,""We decided to further that objective, along with several others," Davis said. "We wanted a car that would satisfy a Mustang enthusiast's dream checklist of performance modifications; a car that would be well engineered and very well balanced; and a performance benchmark to outperform the manual transmission Corvette."

In the old days - NO, Mustangs weren't produced to do battle with the Corvette... but times are changing and so are the cars. Peoples' paradigms better shift too or they are going to find themselves out in left field someplace. No rulebook says you can only pit one of your model against a single competitors model while fighting for specific marketshare. Ford does a very plausible job of differentiating the Cobra from the common V6 Mustang IMO, and if they pit the V6 Mustang against Civics, Camrys, and Malibus while they pit the Cobra against Vettes, Vipers, and GTO's - so be it. Granted, it's different - and maybe goofy - but it's selling @200k units/year so something must be working.

I'll tell you though, IMO Ford is not really "gunning" for any certain market with the Mustang - instead they are simply giving "the buyers" what they are all asking for, thereby creating their own market that defies the traditional lines of demography still used by other manufacturers. Don't beleive me?... Look at the Mustang and tell me what demi-group you don't see driving them EVERY day... old folks? teenagers? married? single? wealthy? broke? white? black? latino? male? female? parents? rural? city? urban? professionals? military?
I've seen them all in new Mustangs - saw a lady at least 60 y/o yesterday driving a new black GT on I-40 doing 70 in a 65 (I passed her going home ). Go to a Mustang show and you'll see every age, color, profession, and influence there, often with kids, all mingling and conversing as if they grew up together.

I've said it before, I'll say it again... the Camaro needs to be flexible. Like in the original days, it needs to become a car for the masses again. That means base V6, hyped V6, base V8, hyped V8, 3 different trannys, oodles of colors, interiors, and options, and a few different exterior packages (like spoilers, air dams, side trim, wheels, etc.). Like centric said, why limit yourself to 50k or 100k units and a certain demographic like men between 35 and 45 y/o making over $40k and living in suburbs? SHOOT FOR THE SKY! Try to make 'em ALL happy and want to spend their $ on a Camaro. Steal from the BMW crowd, the Benz crowd, the beetle buyers, especially the Civic, Camry, Accord, Avalon, G35, Eclipse, 350Z, CTS, LS, Taurus, and ANY OTHER VEHICLE you can steal a buyer from.

OK - was that .02-worth, or do I still owe ya a little more?

 

ProudPony brings up a good point--the Mustang cuts across demographics--young, old, various ethnicities, both sexes. Mention a Mustang to virtually anyone, and they'll say, "That's cool," even if they drive a Camry or an Escalade. Mention a Camaro to someone, and they think of young angry white guys with mullets and ask why you want to have a "kid's car."

This is from personal experience, BTW--a lot of our clients breathed a sigh of relief when I got rid of my 97 TA and switched to a 98 C5 for a daily driver, because I was "growing up." A number of them asked why I didn't get a Cobra, thinking the C5 was new.

This is why you need to shoot for the sky. You need to break the price barriers. You need to do direct comparisons. So that there is a COMPELLING reason to ignore the naysayers.

Without that, whatever new Camaro comes out will be an also-ran, its upper limit of sales always set to 50% of the Mustang market or less--no matter if it has 17 engines, 45 colors, and 23 trim packages.

 

Schismblade....don't you think that you have sort of missed the whole point here?

We are talking about the success of the Camaro as compared to the Mustang. The Mustang has...and will have... many desirable models. The Camaro will need more than one model which is worth buying, if it hopes to succeed.

Are we agreed on that so far?

I'd hope that there is room for a future SS and Z/28 and other Camaro models and that they are all properly executed. I have certain buying preferences which may differ from yours. A smart GM would sell to both of us.

But for all that to work, Camaro SS must find a different formula than the strategy used last time around. It's pretty ridiculous to restrict any appealing features from your entire line up...in order to sell afew thousand SS's per year..........don't you think?

 

Really Proud, I don't think that is necessary. A Z/28 and SS are not interchangeable. They are different and distinct.

Chevy lost sight of that..and actually the ability to differentiate the two. All that they could do was canabalise one for the other.....and hope no one noticed.

Guess What? We Noticed.

Hopefully they'll play it abit smarter next time around...and give more people what they want.

 

You know what just struck me as I was reading this...
Unitl this year, there has only been one other year when the Mustang fielded a GT AND a Mach1 simultaneously... 1969.

In fact, the Mach 1 was credited with killing the GT in the '69 model year due to it's popularity. Nobody optioned for the GT (which was an OPTION then, not an actual model with it's own VIN indicator) once the Mach 1 came out, so it was dropped from the lineup in '70. The Mach 1 stayed around until 1978. The GT reappeared in '82 with no Mach 1 until 2003.

Now granted, Mustang guys - new or old - don't fight about which is better, Mach 1 or GT, but Ford was able to recognize that they couldn't afford to keep both around simultaneously, and they really kept each one characteristically separate from the other - giving each it's own clear identity. Liken the SS to the GT and the Mach 1 to the Z/28 here for a bit.

Maybe that's where GM screwed the pooch. Both SS and Z28 are the same engine/drivetrain and model, with only trim-level differences. The Mach has a different engine, interior, trim, and paint scheme than the GT - wholly different cars IMO. With an F4, after I see the pipes at the rear to tell V6 from LS1, the next place I look on the Camaro is the fender to see if it's got SS or Z28 badging. I'm a fairly astute car guy, but even I can't tell one from the other at 20 yards (if the car is moving on the road... now if it's still and I can see rims, that helps too, but they are changed so easily and often that's not reliable either... )
But put any year Mach 1 and any year GT together, and you can tell instantly which is which... at 20 yards, still or moving, from front or back.

As for my choice, you know where I stand...
I think Z/28 should adorn the fenders and tailpanel of the top-performing Camaro BECAUSE - it is CAMARO SPECIFIC. The top Camaro should be a halo unit for the Camaro model and bring recognition to the Camaro name - moreso than to GM in general. Nobody will ever confuse Z/28 with a Chevelle or Nova... not so with SS which means different things to different people. The next step down (in performance - not necessarily in trim) should be the SS, still ahead of the base V8 and affording luxury and sportiness to the guy with the dough. I definitely DO NOT think that the SS and Z/28 should have the same identical output and drivelines as the last did, as it promotes confusion and the identity crisis discussed above, helping neither (SS or Z/28) to establish its own identity.

Don't want this to turn into (yet another) Z vs. SS thread, but to me the Z/28 has and always will mean Camaro - nothing else. SS to me means Chevelle (first off), the Impy ('90's), then Monte Carlo (the '80's), then Nova and El Camino. The Camaro SS is passe with me - heck, I'm more apt to call an F4 V8 Camaro an LS1 or LT1 Camaro than an SS or Z28 because I kept getting them wrong so often in conversations at the track and shows!
And I'm a car guy too... what does that tell you?

Z284ever, I was just trying to point out that GM needs to bring definitive ID to these models if/when the Camaro comes back - SOMEHOW. And like many have said, no matter what they do, somebody's going to gripe about it. The analogy with the 5.0 v. 4.6 engines in the Mustang was just to point out that despite all the griping, if they make the right decision and support it well, the gripers will give in to reason sooner or later, and all will be well at the Camaro house again.

 

Absolutely!! And why should that be so difficult? It seems so clear to me and many others.

IT IS SO DARNED OBVIOUS!

Z/28: A specific and focused formula. And we all know what that formula is...don't we? It's a take it or leave it proposition. But for those who want it , there is no substitute.

SS: Sporty. Comfortable. An affordable "step up" package. Variety in options and performance.

Sport Coupe: Affordable. Fun. Attractive.

See. Is that so hard? I just, for the life of me, cannot understand why GM doesn't get it.

Maybe they're just trying to fail.

 

Yeah could be. But the analogy in my head ; when we're talking about the original Mustang is:

GT = SS

Shelby GT350 = Z/28

(or even better, GT350R = Z/28)

 

Ford doesn't have a Corvette. They can charge 35-40K for a loaded cobra (or cobra convertible). Chevy has a Corvette. A Corvette priced Camaro doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Who's going to buy a $37,000 Camaro? I don't want to see another round of bloated, expensive Camaros and have all the other models dulled down to make a pricey hood and wheel SS package appealing. The formula didn't work. Sure, they sold a "lot" of SS's - but the volume car (V6 and Z28) sales TANKED.

I want every Camaro to be a "Super Sport". I want it baked in, designed into EVERY camaro so effectively that I don't need an emblem to tell me it's "super sporty". You know, like Corvette.

I'm a car guy, not a Ford guy, BTW.

 

There are people out there that would pay $40,000 for a Camaro. The question is not if but how many. Not enough would, that is for sure.

At G7 we saw a guy at GMMG pay $91,000 for a fully optioned out Camaro with the "ZL1 supercar" package. The base car was $25K, then $32K for the ZLI conversion including an LS6, then it was another $30K or so for them to pull the LS6 and put in a 427 C5R block. Nobody could answer the question why he had to pay for two motors when he only got one, but that was the deal. Now I love Fbodies but you have to be insane or just ridiculously loaded to pay $91K for a car that at best is worth $30.

So, I hate to go off on a tangent but there are people willing to spend stupid amounts of money on cars that may not be worth the price...but for sure there's no business case to be made on that premise.

 

Which is why I stated to widen the gap between SS and Z28. If Ford is successful, I don't see why GM couldn't be. Make the SS more than just minor a performance/appearance tweak.

I say, let the SS stay for the higher dollar buyers, and let the Z28 appeal to the $20,000~ range.

WERM: I never said Ford produced the Vette....

People buy what the want to buy. Why not sell higher priced cars if they are able to? Who's going to buy a $37,000 Camaro? Obviously a lot of people.

 

But that is just an arbitrary classification for both models. You might as well forget the names and just call them Camaro A,B and C.

The Z/28 was never intended to be the cheap, plain jane, entry level car.

The SS was never intended to be the unreachable mega-bucks car.

This strategy will destroy the brand.

You've got to snap out of your "GM 4th gen think".

There are better ways to differentiate these cars and make them successful.

 

I think one of the biggest questions will be if Chevy will build a Camaro that can hang with the Supercharged Cobra.

assuming the base C6 is 400HP and the 05 Cobra is also 400HP, is there any chance we could see a 450HP Camaro even though it would step on the Vettes toes? I think this could be done if the made a small production of say 500 a year, not enough to steal Vette sales but enough to have braging rights over the Cobra.

450HP ZL1 Camaro would be nice

how about a new Big block Camaro

 

I don't think so. If Ford makes a 500hp Cobra...it's competition will be the Z06.

There is not a snowflake's chance in hell that GM would ever allow a Camaro to run with a Z06.

 

I wonder if there is any chance at a limited production of 300 or less like the Cobra R?

if the C6 Z06 is 500HP and 3000lbs. then I don't think a 500HP Camaro ( or 490HP ) should be much of a problem for a C6 Z06.

Maybe RedPlanet could give us some more info on the odds of a VERY limited edition Cobra stomping Camaro?

 

GM has always missed the reason that Mustang out sells Camaro. Ford has got the market cornered, smaller doors, shorter hoods. My mother went shopping for her midlife crisis dream car (Trans Am) one test drive and dream was dead. Drove it home on test drive and couldn't open door to get out in the garage, not to mention raked the bumper on the ground on the way in to the driveway. She actually fell in love with the Mustangs because of the ergonomics, she did eventually buy a Grand Prix GTP, but point is the F-body has no appeal to the average consumer. GM never figured out that most consumers don't care which car is faster, to them both cars go faster than they dare go. If you think I am wrong, go test drive a Mustang and you will see what I am talking about. Most of the performance conserned adults 30-70year old, want the Corvette and don't care to bother with the "teen image" F-body. Make the new F more like a Malibu than a Corvette, let people sit up strait and not need a rope to get out of the car. My buddy bought his '94 Z28 from an old man, sold it cuz he couldnt get in and out of the car anymore, also the drivers door is all chiped up from like 15 door dings, old man admits to dinging a few neiboring cars in his day. I am a Mustang man myself, but I want to see the F return, I love the rivalry.