Camaro's are pony cars . It was a class of car created by the Mustang in 1964. Cars of the class (Camaro, Firebird, Javelin, AMX, Barracuda, etc. were smaller than "Musclecars" such as the GTO, 442, Roadrunner, etc.)

Bigger = Heavier = Slower & Worse Handling.

 

But they are basically considered mid-size. From the 2nd-4th Gen they were definetly, and the 1st Gen could be in that class today also.

Not neccessarily.

 

-But Muscle Cars were "intermediates" - the next size up from midsize - and to be technical, I believe the original pony cars were considered compacts (the last camaro and current mustang are considered subcompacts by the EPA). Sounds like you'd be happier with a GTO (nothing wrong with that!).

Always. F=MA. You can't argue with physics.

 

No way would I be happier with a GTO!! Camaros are not compacts. I don't know, but to me 184"-193" is not compact. If your "Bigger = Heavier = Slower & Worse Handling" were true than the M*stang would not have been out-performed by the Camaro for all those years in all areas of performance. (I don't mean to start anything by saying that) And even if the M*stang was faster for a few years you can bet that the Camaro had it with handling and braking while being bigger and heavier. Bigger does not alway mean heavier, and heavier does not always mean that handling will not be as good, it all depends on how it's made.

 

By comparing Mustang to Camaro, you are comparing apples to oranges - two different cars.

If you compare two two cars with the same physical characteristics (engine power curve, suspension types, weight distribution, chassis rigitity, size, wheelbase, etc.) the lighter one will be faster and handle better, simply due to the physics.

You are right, a heavy car can be made to handle exceptionally well - but not as well as the same car if it were lighter!

 

Um...Mustangs actually did out perform Camaros for nearly a decade (1982-1993) in acceleration, and there was a horserace (pun intended) going on from '67 to '73 between the 2.

Fox based Mustangs didn't handle as well as Camaros of that era because Mustangs weren't purpose designed as 3rd gen Camaros. However, it took very few components to make the fox Mustang outhandle the Camaro back then, and still weigh less (using the notchback).

With all else being equal, bigger & heavier does compromise speed & handling, but why would you want to make something bigger & heavier than it has to be??

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by guionM
Um...Mustangs actually did out perform Camaros for nearly a decade (1982-1993) in acceleration, and there was a horserace (pun intended) going on from '67 to '73 between the 2.

That's disputable.

Fox based Mustangs didn't handle as well as Camaros of that era because Mustangs weren't purpose designed as 3rd gen Camaros. However, it took very few components to make the fox Mustang outhandle the Camaro back then, and still weigh less (using the notchback).

I'd like to see that.

With all else being equal, bigger & heavier does compromise speed & handling, but why would you want to make something bigger & heavier than it has to be??

I don't want it to be.

 

I see an awful lot of suggestions that would make the Camaro a much better car. Less overhang, lower weight, better quality interior...and, of course, more power

There's one big problem that I think we're all missing here. Sure, we want GM to do these things for us because we want to buy a 5th gen...but why would GM want to build it?

You must all remember that GM already has a performance coupe. It's called the Corvette, it costs $45,000-$50,000, and GM is selling every darn one of them as fast as they can come off the line. Dealers are making fine profit margins off them (not as much as SUV's ) and GM is making good profits from the dealers.

Why in the the world would GM want to build a tight, fast, cheap 5th gen when it would almost certainly detract from Corvette sales? You have to know they've done studies on this. Oh, sure, your average Camaro buyer would never consider a 'Vette, mainly because of cost. But imagine how many potential 'Vette owners might flock to a RWD, hydroformed chassis, IRS, V8 powered, somewhat-lightweight, somewhat-refined-interior Camaro that (ought to) go for under $25,000? The only way it could go for this price is if GM had an extremely tight profit margin. And they're not going to do that when they're selling every SUV and 'Vette that comes off the line at full sticker price and then some.

Don't get me wrong here, folks, I want all of the above in a nice 5th gen. But right now I'm considering dumping my modified '96 SS for a modified 'Vette simply because I'm damn tired of rattling over potholes, chintzy interior, and an engine I can barely see much less work on. I want these things in a Camaro, but that'll mean a lost 'Vette sale. And 'Vette's make them more money per sale. I'm telling you, GM just ain't gonna do it. They haven't got the *****.

 

Perhaps you should come to BG and attend the b-day bash. Also read some other posts in the forum, mine or the one about the NCM f-bod bash, you might be in for some good news.

 

GM has done the studies. And apparently there is not too much cross shopping between Camaro and Corvette.

Why would GM want to build a well done 5th gen?

* The car itself should bring profit to GM's bottom line.

* It would create traffic and excitement in Chevy showrooms, which would sell other Chevys.

*It would help revitalize a haggered but loyal enthusiast base.

*This enthusiast base also buys other vehicle like * TRUCKS * .

* A new Camaro....especially a good one...would be on every car magazine cover for months. The comparo road test would go on for years. And if Camaro could win most of them.......
The marketing buzz and exposure value for Chevrolet would be incalculable.

* If GM builds a 5th gen Z/28 that is good enough for me to buy...I'll get off of GM's back for good.

 

I'm going to take a guess and say that whatever studies have been done might just be a bit out of date. Here's why:

Right now, there seems to be two different types of "performance" crowds out there. On one hand you've got the rice burners. Ford's making a mint off Focus SVT sales, and Chevy's got some dinky little 4-banger-with-a-fartcan-muffler sport compact as well. The teenage kids are going nuts over these. But they're more concerned with who's got the biggest wing, the flashiest graphics, the most obnoxious stereo's, or the most blinky little lights than they are about HP output. More's the pity...

The other half of your performance crowd is the I'll-only-take-the-V8-thankyouverymuch crowd. But the only performance oriented RWD V8 car in Chevy's lineup is the 'Vette. Folks who can't afford a $45,000 'Vette are going for Mustangs instead...or they're going sport compact (ugh, I'm getting ill at the thought of what kind of kids we're bringing up...and what they'll drive when they're our age).

Chevy has never figured out how to make money with the Camaro. If they make it cheap and chintzy then the enthusiasts (like me) will consider it a cheap and chintzy car with a decent engine. It will sell mildly well but in order to outdo Mustang sales it must be better than the Mustang -- in all departments, including price. The only problem there is if you improve the Camaro too much it becomes a 'Vette-lite kind of car. Honestly, why do you think Chevy saddled the LT1/LS1 Camaro's with more restrictive intakes/exhausts and in some cases even milder cams? Because they couldn't engineer better packaging? Come on! They did it because they couldn't have a $25,000 ponycar put up spirited competition with a $45,000 'Vette -- and with some aftermarket intake lids and good exhausts, it most certainly can in the quarter mile.

Here's my take on things: just about every Chevy sports car enthusiast really wants a 'Vette. While the Camaro has two more seats, does anyone really use them for anything other than cargo or toddlers? What folks want is a $25,000 Corvette, that's what they want. If you can get a Camaro up to about 80% of the capability of a 'Vette, those "I want a 'Vette" crowds are going to take a long, serious look at Camaro's. The elitist snobs will never buy a Z28, but your midrange buyer will have a hard time coming up with a justification for that additional $20,000. Bingo, lost sale of a 'Vette. Chevy's internal politics will just not let that happen.

Note that Ford doesn't have this problem because they have no 'Vette equivalent (you Cobra SVT guys, don't bother flaming, I'm immune), therefore they don't have to worry about encroaching on some other cherished product's turf. GM/Chevy has been through the meat grinder over the last decade and a lot of it is due to hugely overlapping product lines. They're killing off redundant models and, in some cases, entire redundant companies (Olds, anyone?). I just don't see them doing the Camaro properly and making money off it.

Last thought: Before the wildly successful launch of the C5, Chevy had plans for a "stripper" 'Vette. It would be no frills, have very few options, weigh less, and cost a lot less than your standard 'Vette coupe. All this is detailed in the wonderful All Corvettes Are Red book. When C5 sales went through the roof, Chevy took a long, hard look at their production lines. Every 'Vette they could make was being sold immediately and there was a good backlog of orders. Why in the world would they want to take up valuable production line space with a lower cost model that would make them less profit per unit? The idea was scrapped -- and then morphed into something totally different: the Z06. Instead of making a lesser, cheaper 'Vette, they decided to make a greater, costlier 'Vette. More profit, of course. You don't hear beans about a cheaper model anymore, and a really nice Camaro would be no different, no different at all.

 

Here's my problem.

Under your scenario...Chevy should have the Cobalt, and the next sporty step up is Corvette. Everyone in between should buy a Mustang.

Do you see the opportunity that you 've left open for a future Camaro here?

BTW...GM made a profit on Camaro....even, (maybe even more so), on the 4th gen.

 

He's right. There needs to be a Camaro and there will be. Performance, V8, and RWD are what's coming back now. Chevrolet needs its musclecar again. (done right this time)

 

Every study ever done regarding Camaro & Corvette pretty conclusively show the 2 cars appeal to two entirely different markets.

Corvette is a 2 seat, $45,000+ car whose customers buy as a sort of self reward or prized posession. Camaros are 4 seat bought primarily as daily drivers by people who are significantly younger making significantly less money.

Doesn't matter which year you choose to use as your market research base, the blantant fact is Camaro & Corvette buyers are 2 different groups of people. Camaro buyers many times eventially purchase a Corvette, as a car they always wanted once the children are through college & the house is about paid.

Currently (2001) the demographics for the 2:

Camaro buyer demographics (source GM media, 2001):
Camaro/Camaro Z28
Median age: 36 years/41 years
Median household income: $55,000/$65,000
College graduates: 45%/50%
Principal driver (male/female): 40%/60%/70%/30%

Corvette Buyer Profile
Median Age: 48 years
Median household income — $100,000
Gender Mix: 74% men/26% women
66% college educated
63% married

To think Corvette owners would flock to a "cheaper" car with the same qualities is extremely unrealistic. Corvette actually outsold the far cheaper Z28 the final months (even the more expensive SS did better than the Z28 the final years as far as maintaining sales!).

Also, the current Z06 was initially concieved as a stripper Corvette, but studies Chevrolet did with Corvette owners overwhelmingly proved such a car would be a flop, so Z06 became a higher priced "ultimate Corvette. Unlike us bottom feeders, Corvette owners want a Corvette!! Not a budget sports ride.

On the same coin, Camaro buyers want VALUE! Every survey done on the Camaro line (not just Z28) shows a customer base that want a stylish, well equpted car at a modest price. That modest price view carries over to the performance end of Camaro buyers as well (remember, all Camaros are NOT Z28s or SSs).

Finally, why would GM want to build a Camaro? Because there's a market for it! Mustang & Infinity G35 ar 2 cars that are proving there's a market for high value, well made, sporty styled 4 passenger car.

BTW: GM also did a study on basing the Camaro on the Corvette chassis (Formula79 did an article on it), and found it undoable.

 

Guion,

With the demographics, you bring the biggest piece of the puzzle that was missing with the fourth gens...

Young buyers.

Wither it was too expensive to buy, or too expensive to own, or too impractical, or didn't have the proper panache to nail down young folks and support 100,000 sales a year.

I think, in truth, the real problem was that the young folks didn't even know it existed.

The car HAD all of the prerequisites for the "future Corvette buyers". It was damned fast, handled well, had all the right parts in all the right places. The performance nuts HAD to consider the car.