How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by guionM
I see alot of problems here, Charlie. Some of them have the potential of making GM's problems worse. Here's why.
1st, while Pontiac should be affordable, they shouldn't be priced with Chevys. Anything from Pontiac costing $18K isn't Pontiac. To be honest, I'd even venture that the Solstice is even priced too low, but gets a pass because Chevrolet offers nothing like it.
Next, Mazda's position at Ford is as an import division. Mazda's counterpart at GM is of course, Saturn. My disagreement with the notion that Pontiac should be a Mazda can be summed up in 2 words: Grand Prix. That car is the soul and the spirit of what Pontiac is. The '05 & '06 GTO also represents what Pontiac is all about. Sophisticated performance, great interiors, not a feeling of cost cutting anywhere (unlike Chevy's DNA of low price, high volume, & cheap performance). Pontiac is like nothing else, unless you compare it to a lowball SVT. But an American "BMW" isn't far off either.
Pontiac should NOT need to appeal to young people. That's Chevrolet, and (grudgingly) Saturn. Making every car division appeal to "young people" is a recipie for disaster. Buick has a particular focus and market, just like Pontiac should. Pontiac has been a division that people who started in Chevrolets move up to. I can see someone who started out in a Cavalier or Camaro moving up to a GTO, and in fact, many have. I can also see someone who ran a Z28 when in their early 30s, now hauling a Grand Prix GXP now that they have a family and need those other 2 doors (and don't want a cheap, utility-like Malibu).
The body on frame idea is good for those who want a big car (or at least a modern version of one). But when I look out my apartment window at the (24 year old) neighbor's black, BBS rimmed, & lowered Honda Accord sedan, you're going to have a tough time convincing me he'd be willing to buy a truck based car with BOF construction. Car enthusiasts know cars, and those young buyers who aren't, are after low priced practical, small, and most important, easy to insure cars.
Cobalt is doing extremely well with 1st time and younger buyers. This badge engineered version Pontiac is planning is aimed squarely at the youth and 1st time buyer that wants something more than a Chevrolet.
Finally, I'd be dead set against any $25K GTO. There is no reason whatsoever that a GTO (let alone ANYTHING with 400 horsepower!!) should be available at a price that low. Impala SSs run 26K. A GXP Grand Prix runs $27K. Why should Pontiac's top performance car, and a car that would inevitably be more of a Grand Tourer with a longer standard equptment list and more bells and whistles be cheaper than the average price of a 2002 Camaro Z28 4 years ago? Even a new Chevy Monte Carlo SS runs 26 large.
Two of the most deceptive ideas based on misconceptions I can think of is 1) People buy the cheapest vehicle, and 2) Young people buy new fast cars.
People tend to go for the most distinctive and the best value. PT Cruisers outsold cheaper Neons based on the same chassis. The same happened with the new Beetle and the Golf. People ignored $23K base Z28s, and loaded up average prices well over the $25K mark. No one buys strippers anymore.
Young people have to deal with insurence rates and no credit. Most all of them get around by buying used. Female buyers tend to be the lions share majority of those buying new cars at a young age (not far fetched when you put yourself in position of a dad, and putting dependability ahead of everything else to the point you'd rather get your daughter a new car rather than taking a chance on a used one). Us guys tend to get used.
I can see what you're trying to get at with your proposal. But from where I see it, it not only takes away from Chevy's role at GM, it also dilutes Pontiac's as well. Pontiac has a distinctive place in the market, and there isn't a thing wrong with Pontiac's demographics. Pontiac's problems are very obvious:
*They cut models with no real replacements:
Bonneville, Firebird, Sunfire, and Grand Am were all cut without anything to replace it or were replaced by smaller volume models (the whole 200K Grand Am line was replaced with essentially a single model sedan). It's pretty silly to kill 1/3 of my lineup and then complain when my sales have dropped by 1/3.
*They need new models:
Grand Prix was essentially a redo of the last model, and has been run for a long time (by today's standards) without a rebody or styling update. The G6 stands as the only Pontiac in recent years that actually replace a model, instead of that model being killed at the end of their life.
The GTO seemed to hit their stride in sales at $29-30K MSRP. This fits in perfectly with a Chevy version coming in at Monte Carlo's $26-27K.
1st, while Pontiac should be affordable, they shouldn't be priced with Chevys. Anything from Pontiac costing $18K isn't Pontiac. To be honest, I'd even venture that the Solstice is even priced too low, but gets a pass because Chevrolet offers nothing like it.
Next, Mazda's position at Ford is as an import division. Mazda's counterpart at GM is of course, Saturn. My disagreement with the notion that Pontiac should be a Mazda can be summed up in 2 words: Grand Prix. That car is the soul and the spirit of what Pontiac is. The '05 & '06 GTO also represents what Pontiac is all about. Sophisticated performance, great interiors, not a feeling of cost cutting anywhere (unlike Chevy's DNA of low price, high volume, & cheap performance). Pontiac is like nothing else, unless you compare it to a lowball SVT. But an American "BMW" isn't far off either.
Pontiac should NOT need to appeal to young people. That's Chevrolet, and (grudgingly) Saturn. Making every car division appeal to "young people" is a recipie for disaster. Buick has a particular focus and market, just like Pontiac should. Pontiac has been a division that people who started in Chevrolets move up to. I can see someone who started out in a Cavalier or Camaro moving up to a GTO, and in fact, many have. I can also see someone who ran a Z28 when in their early 30s, now hauling a Grand Prix GXP now that they have a family and need those other 2 doors (and don't want a cheap, utility-like Malibu).
The body on frame idea is good for those who want a big car (or at least a modern version of one). But when I look out my apartment window at the (24 year old) neighbor's black, BBS rimmed, & lowered Honda Accord sedan, you're going to have a tough time convincing me he'd be willing to buy a truck based car with BOF construction. Car enthusiasts know cars, and those young buyers who aren't, are after low priced practical, small, and most important, easy to insure cars.
Cobalt is doing extremely well with 1st time and younger buyers. This badge engineered version Pontiac is planning is aimed squarely at the youth and 1st time buyer that wants something more than a Chevrolet.
Finally, I'd be dead set against any $25K GTO. There is no reason whatsoever that a GTO (let alone ANYTHING with 400 horsepower!!) should be available at a price that low. Impala SSs run 26K. A GXP Grand Prix runs $27K. Why should Pontiac's top performance car, and a car that would inevitably be more of a Grand Tourer with a longer standard equptment list and more bells and whistles be cheaper than the average price of a 2002 Camaro Z28 4 years ago? Even a new Chevy Monte Carlo SS runs 26 large.
Two of the most deceptive ideas based on misconceptions I can think of is 1) People buy the cheapest vehicle, and 2) Young people buy new fast cars.
People tend to go for the most distinctive and the best value. PT Cruisers outsold cheaper Neons based on the same chassis. The same happened with the new Beetle and the Golf. People ignored $23K base Z28s, and loaded up average prices well over the $25K mark. No one buys strippers anymore.
Young people have to deal with insurence rates and no credit. Most all of them get around by buying used. Female buyers tend to be the lions share majority of those buying new cars at a young age (not far fetched when you put yourself in position of a dad, and putting dependability ahead of everything else to the point you'd rather get your daughter a new car rather than taking a chance on a used one). Us guys tend to get used.
I can see what you're trying to get at with your proposal. But from where I see it, it not only takes away from Chevy's role at GM, it also dilutes Pontiac's as well. Pontiac has a distinctive place in the market, and there isn't a thing wrong with Pontiac's demographics. Pontiac's problems are very obvious:
*They cut models with no real replacements:
Bonneville, Firebird, Sunfire, and Grand Am were all cut without anything to replace it or were replaced by smaller volume models (the whole 200K Grand Am line was replaced with essentially a single model sedan). It's pretty silly to kill 1/3 of my lineup and then complain when my sales have dropped by 1/3.
*They need new models:
Grand Prix was essentially a redo of the last model, and has been run for a long time (by today's standards) without a rebody or styling update. The G6 stands as the only Pontiac in recent years that actually replace a model, instead of that model being killed at the end of their life.
The GTO seemed to hit their stride in sales at $29-30K MSRP. This fits in perfectly with a Chevy version coming in at Monte Carlo's $26-27K.
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by 0toinsanein5.4sec
I honestly dont see that car happening for 18k. It wouldnt make much sense when you have the smaller, less powerful, (although better handling) solstice for more than that. I dont know, it seems like it would canabalize pontiac a little bit. To make it a fun hot car they would have to do a LOT of suspension work to it to make it somewhat agile.
I say they stretch kappa 5-6 inches in the wheel base and maybe some more outside of the wheels. I've heard that GM engineers have successfully stretched kappa to show GM brass it could be done but they werent interested. Stretching kappa has to be cheaper than reengineering a whole new chassis for these cars.
it can't be done. If stretching Kappa were so easy, we'd already have it. Plus, Kappa - regardless of size - cannot be built in very high volume, due to some specifics of it's manufacturing process.Unless we have some future breakthrough, I'd say forget Kappa and high volume and rear seats.
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by guionM
I see alot of problems here, Charlie. Some of them have the potential of making GM's problems worse. Here's why.
1st, while Pontiac should be affordable, they shouldn't be priced with Chevys. Anything from Pontiac costing $18K isn't Pontiac. To be honest, I'd even venture that the Solstice is even priced too low, but gets a pass because Chevrolet offers nothing like it.
1st, while Pontiac should be affordable, they shouldn't be priced with Chevys. Anything from Pontiac costing $18K isn't Pontiac. To be honest, I'd even venture that the Solstice is even priced too low, but gets a pass because Chevrolet offers nothing like it.
Next, Mazda's position at Ford is as an import division. Mazda's counterpart at GM is of course, Saturn. My disagreement with the notion that Pontiac should be a Mazda can be summed up in 2 words: Grand Prix. That car is the soul and the spirit of what Pontiac is. The '05 & '06 GTO also represents what Pontiac is all about. Sophisticated performance, great interiors, not a feeling of cost cutting anywhere (unlike Chevy's DNA of low price, high volume, & cheap performance). Pontiac is like nothing else, unless you compare it to a lowball SVT. But an American "BMW" isn't far off either.
Pontiac should NOT need to appeal to young people. That's Chevrolet, and (grudgingly) Saturn. Making every car division appeal to "young people" is a recipie for disaster. Buick has a particular focus and market, just like Pontiac should. Pontiac has been a division that people who started in Chevrolets move up to. I can see someone who started out in a Cavalier or Camaro moving up to a GTO, and in fact, many have. I can also see someone who ran a Z28 when in their early 30s, now hauling a Grand Prix GXP now that they have a family and need those other 2 doors (and don't want a cheap, utility-like Malibu).
The body on frame idea is good for those who want a big car (or at least a modern version of one). But when I look out my apartment window at the (24 year old) neighbor's black, BBS rimmed, & lowered Honda Accord sedan, you're going to have a tough time convincing me he'd be willing to buy a truck based car with BOF construction. Car enthusiasts know cars, and those young buyers who aren't, are after low priced practical, small, and most important, easy to insure cars.
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by guionM
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Finally, I'd be dead set against any $25K GTO. There is no reason whatsoever that a GTO (let alone ANYTHING with 400 horsepower!!) should be available at a price that low. Impala SSs run 26K. A GXP Grand Prix runs $27K. Why should Pontiac's top performance car, and a car that would inevitably be more of a Grand Tourer with a longer standard equptment list and more bells and whistles be cheaper than the average price of a 2002 Camaro Z28 4 years ago? Even a new Chevy Monte Carlo SS runs 26 large.
Finally, I'd be dead set against any $25K GTO. There is no reason whatsoever that a GTO (let alone ANYTHING with 400 horsepower!!) should be available at a price that low. Impala SSs run 26K. A GXP Grand Prix runs $27K. Why should Pontiac's top performance car, and a car that would inevitably be more of a Grand Tourer with a longer standard equptment list and more bells and whistles be cheaper than the average price of a 2002 Camaro Z28 4 years ago? Even a new Chevy Monte Carlo SS runs 26 large.
GTO. Why was the original GTO so successful? Because, it was an exciting package, available in multiple configurations - including various body styles - for really, really CHEAP! $296 on any LeMans coupe/hardtop/convertible.
Ok, 400 hp for 25K might be excessive....maybe that one should get an LS4....that's up for discussion. As far as the 4th gen analogy.....those cars didn't sell because they had absolutely no appeal whatsoever to the general public. NONE! I'm talking exciting Pontiac cars here, with expressive styling, good looking wheels, cool interiors....for an incredible price!!.....see where I'm going. The 4th gen analogy is not a good comparo.
Last edited by Z284ever; Feb 27, 2006 at 10:10 AM.
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
I can't, for the life of me, figure out what BOF stands for. Anyone?
I agree - Pontiac lacks direction. I like the idea of a Tempest / GTO. I am tempted to say that the G6 should have been called Tempest.
I agree - Pontiac lacks direction. I like the idea of a Tempest / GTO. I am tempted to say that the G6 should have been called Tempest.
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by JakeRobb
I can't, for the life of me, figure out what BOF stands for. Anyone?
I agree - Pontiac lacks direction. I like the idea of a Tempest / GTO. I am tempted to say that the G6 should have been called Tempest.
I agree - Pontiac lacks direction. I like the idea of a Tempest / GTO. I am tempted to say that the G6 should have been called Tempest.
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From: canada
Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
If Daimler Chrysler reinvented BIG powerfull RWD cars, why should GM waite and see what someone else can come up with.
This could be a new market thats waiting to be created.
Youg people are into the "tuner scene" because franckly its the only thing available to them. If there was an available RWD variant of a small performance oritentated vehicule that remained somewhat practical and looked "hot", maybe they would start to gravitate towards it.
Sometimes playing follow the leader works.. but sometimes you have to take the lead.
This could be a new market thats waiting to be created.
Youg people are into the "tuner scene" because franckly its the only thing available to them. If there was an available RWD variant of a small performance oritentated vehicule that remained somewhat practical and looked "hot", maybe they would start to gravitate towards it.
Sometimes playing follow the leader works.. but sometimes you have to take the lead.
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From: Sarasota FL
Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Alright, being the resident Pontiac salesman, here's my take on what I NEED to make Pontiac successful...
1) A great ad campaign that lets people know I'm still in business.
2) A COUPE SOLSTICE. Priced at $19,995 with A/C standard. Any questions? The problem is, Pontiac can't even meet the convertible demand, so without adding another production line, I don't see how we can get a Kappa coupe...we know GM won't spend more $$$ on this niche product for a division it doesn't give a crap about for the moment...will it after the revitalization of Cadillac, Chevy, Saturn and Buick? If I could answer that, I'd be rich...
3) I needed the G5 yesterday, to be honest. A lot of people on here gripe...I think its a great idea. Pontiac has a highly FEMALE clientele, many of whom have been left out in the cold by getting rid of the Grand Am and the Sunfire. They don't want a Vibe, and a G6 can get a little pricey compared to what they were used to...aka a Grand Am SE sedan with an $8,500 rebate that would come out to $12k brand new (yes, I am exaggerating by maybe $500 here...
). The Cobalt is a home run, and Pontiac could use the 30-40,000 units a year, as could the dealers. I HOPE it is more differntiated than the Pursuit is, but again, this is Pontiac...yeah right...
4) I need a GTO with an attitude, and a fresh Grand Prix. Bonneville owners hate the lack of rear leg room and head room (a G6 is better in the back!!!!), '97-'03 Grand Prix owners hate the styling, and no one else except Enterprise and die-hard Grand Prix owners have bothered to notice the '04+ car. The GXP gets a reprive from the above comment...its the only one of the lineup, aside from the Special Edition, that has the style ALL Grand Prixs should have.
5) A 185hp Torrent against a 240hp Santa Fe and a 269hp RAV4? Rebates, here we come!!!!!! WOO HOO!!!!!!!!! I love having these pig slow beasts on my lot. That engine should be an entry level Chevy motor at best...not in a $29k Pontiac. The 3.9 should be the ONLY engine in the Torrent, and YES, we need it. It sells well. Its like the Murano is to Nissan. Leave it be, and give it a real motor. It would be fine.
6) The Vibe? Kill it, and replace it with a G5 sedan, please.
7) Here is the lineup Pontiac NEEDS...
G5 coupe and sedan: $14,995 - $22,995. Take the Cobalt, give it attitude and call it a day.
Solstice convertible AND coupe. Price the coupe $500-1,000 behind the vert, call it a day.
G6 coupe and sedan: Fine as-is, especially with the adjusted pricing. But, there should be, without question, a $30k, 300hp supercharged 3.9 GXP with AWD...without question...then call it a day.
Torrent: Give it a real engine, call it a day.
Grand Prix: DO NOT CALL IT A G8. I WILL SHOOT LUTZ IF THEY DO. Its the only name I have left with ANY recognition. I wish they'd bring the Grand Am name back for EPII and nix the G6 name!!!! Grand Am and Grand Prix flowed together well in Pontiac nomenclature and history. Put the Grand Prix on Zeta, style it in the vein of the new Special Edition '06 Grand Prix (aka mean and aggressive when standing still), GIVE IT AN M6, call it a day.
GTO: = Grand Prix - 2 doors. Call it a day.
Any questions? I can fix Pontiac, cheaply, without having to resort to Pontiac-only offerings. A Solstice coupe, Torrent with an engine, a real Grand Prix and a performance G6 are all we really need, and I bet sales would top 600k a year from their current 420 level. Nixing the Vibe looses 60k, but you'll pick up 80k with the G5, so that nets 20k. A better Grand Prix could get near 180k from 120k now, so there's another 60k. A Solstice coupe could sell 20k a year, doubling its sales. There's 100k. Make a real GTO, and it could sell 40k a year, more than double now. There's 120k. Where will I pull the other 60k from? An ad budget, a Torrent that is a market leader instead of DOA, and some magic...it can happen.
1) A great ad campaign that lets people know I'm still in business.
2) A COUPE SOLSTICE. Priced at $19,995 with A/C standard. Any questions? The problem is, Pontiac can't even meet the convertible demand, so without adding another production line, I don't see how we can get a Kappa coupe...we know GM won't spend more $$$ on this niche product for a division it doesn't give a crap about for the moment...will it after the revitalization of Cadillac, Chevy, Saturn and Buick? If I could answer that, I'd be rich...
3) I needed the G5 yesterday, to be honest. A lot of people on here gripe...I think its a great idea. Pontiac has a highly FEMALE clientele, many of whom have been left out in the cold by getting rid of the Grand Am and the Sunfire. They don't want a Vibe, and a G6 can get a little pricey compared to what they were used to...aka a Grand Am SE sedan with an $8,500 rebate that would come out to $12k brand new (yes, I am exaggerating by maybe $500 here...
). The Cobalt is a home run, and Pontiac could use the 30-40,000 units a year, as could the dealers. I HOPE it is more differntiated than the Pursuit is, but again, this is Pontiac...yeah right...4) I need a GTO with an attitude, and a fresh Grand Prix. Bonneville owners hate the lack of rear leg room and head room (a G6 is better in the back!!!!), '97-'03 Grand Prix owners hate the styling, and no one else except Enterprise and die-hard Grand Prix owners have bothered to notice the '04+ car. The GXP gets a reprive from the above comment...its the only one of the lineup, aside from the Special Edition, that has the style ALL Grand Prixs should have.
5) A 185hp Torrent against a 240hp Santa Fe and a 269hp RAV4? Rebates, here we come!!!!!! WOO HOO!!!!!!!!! I love having these pig slow beasts on my lot. That engine should be an entry level Chevy motor at best...not in a $29k Pontiac. The 3.9 should be the ONLY engine in the Torrent, and YES, we need it. It sells well. Its like the Murano is to Nissan. Leave it be, and give it a real motor. It would be fine.
6) The Vibe? Kill it, and replace it with a G5 sedan, please.
7) Here is the lineup Pontiac NEEDS...
G5 coupe and sedan: $14,995 - $22,995. Take the Cobalt, give it attitude and call it a day.
Solstice convertible AND coupe. Price the coupe $500-1,000 behind the vert, call it a day.
G6 coupe and sedan: Fine as-is, especially with the adjusted pricing. But, there should be, without question, a $30k, 300hp supercharged 3.9 GXP with AWD...without question...then call it a day.
Torrent: Give it a real engine, call it a day.
Grand Prix: DO NOT CALL IT A G8. I WILL SHOOT LUTZ IF THEY DO. Its the only name I have left with ANY recognition. I wish they'd bring the Grand Am name back for EPII and nix the G6 name!!!! Grand Am and Grand Prix flowed together well in Pontiac nomenclature and history. Put the Grand Prix on Zeta, style it in the vein of the new Special Edition '06 Grand Prix (aka mean and aggressive when standing still), GIVE IT AN M6, call it a day.
GTO: = Grand Prix - 2 doors. Call it a day.
Any questions? I can fix Pontiac, cheaply, without having to resort to Pontiac-only offerings. A Solstice coupe, Torrent with an engine, a real Grand Prix and a performance G6 are all we really need, and I bet sales would top 600k a year from their current 420 level. Nixing the Vibe looses 60k, but you'll pick up 80k with the G5, so that nets 20k. A better Grand Prix could get near 180k from 120k now, so there's another 60k. A Solstice coupe could sell 20k a year, doubling its sales. There's 100k. Make a real GTO, and it could sell 40k a year, more than double now. There's 120k. Where will I pull the other 60k from? An ad budget, a Torrent that is a market leader instead of DOA, and some magic...it can happen.
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
As for a BOF cheap Pontiac? With all due respect Charlie, I know where you're going here...but Pontiac will be the laughing stock of car mags and the youth market everywhere. Acura gives its fans an RSX...we give our Pontiac fans a truck-car? Hell no...no thank you. Pontiac needs more $$$$ to take existing platforms and work with them, like the GP GXP. The problem is, the GP is flawed as-is...Pontiac needs a whole new car to work with.
guion is right...the GP is the heart and soul of Pontiac. We need a great G6 (which we're close with the one we got) and a phenomenal Grand Prix replacement. Grand Ams and Grand Prixs were the backbone in sales and spirit of the division for years...its about time we got back to that, and stop relying on little niche sports cars and 1997 styled muscle coupes to generate the excitement.
guion is right...the GP is the heart and soul of Pontiac. We need a great G6 (which we're close with the one we got) and a phenomenal Grand Prix replacement. Grand Ams and Grand Prixs were the backbone in sales and spirit of the division for years...its about time we got back to that, and stop relying on little niche sports cars and 1997 styled muscle coupes to generate the excitement.
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by Jason E
As for a BOF cheap Pontiac? With all due respect Charlie, I know where you're going here...but Pontiac will be the laughing stock of car mags and the youth market everywhere.
From a marketing point of view, BOF would have to be handled just right. I don't know, show a guy using his new GTO to tow his classic '65 Tripower Goat or something. Call them the NEW Full Framed Pontiacs!...there are marketing opportunities with it.
Can you imagine what the press would say if such a GTO performed as well or better than the current one, looked WAY cooler, and cost $5-7K LESS? (good or bad)
BOF cars could be a double edged sword, but at least it would sure shake some things up. Would that be so bad for arthritic Pontiac?
Last edited by Z284ever; Feb 27, 2006 at 12:10 PM.
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
I am pretty sure that Charlie would not be suggesting a a truck based Camaro.....yet a GTO is okay..and a perfect solution.
Pontiac's whole problem is....it was a money maker and has sold in high volumes but GM did not plow a proportionate amount of the funds back into new vehicles. Now they are left with no GTO, a Grand Prix that does not looks as good as it's predecesor, and a G6 on an expensive new platform that does not sell as well as the Grand Am. Solstice is great...but with the low price and volume, it is a non factor. All the while, Saturn which a year ago was closer to it's deathbed than any GM brand is getting billions plowed into while Pontiac's ad budget gets slashed. This robbing Peter to pay Paul will kill GM quicker than anything else out there.
Pontiac's whole problem is....it was a money maker and has sold in high volumes but GM did not plow a proportionate amount of the funds back into new vehicles. Now they are left with no GTO, a Grand Prix that does not looks as good as it's predecesor, and a G6 on an expensive new platform that does not sell as well as the Grand Am. Solstice is great...but with the low price and volume, it is a non factor. All the while, Saturn which a year ago was closer to it's deathbed than any GM brand is getting billions plowed into while Pontiac's ad budget gets slashed. This robbing Peter to pay Paul will kill GM quicker than anything else out there.
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From: The Golden State
Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Well, I look at it like this: Chevy should compete toe to toe with Toyota. Toyota created Scion which is generally priced lower than most Toyotas. But Scion offers something different than Toyota. Scion has been a huge success for Toyota. They were willing to think outside the box.
Let's face it....Saturn will slot where it would make sense for Pontiac to be. So Pontiac needs to be something else. The W-car GP is on death watch. Although I agree the focus given the GXP GP was most like a "Pontiac SVT", that's really about it. And I probably wouldn't want the job of going to the GM Board and saying...."hey fellas, the '05/'06 GTO is what Pontiac is all about".
Frankly Guy, I no longer buy into the paradigm that people start at Chevy and "move-up" to Pontiac.
Branden went from a Camaro to Grand Prix. Darth went from a Camaro to GTO. I came within a whisker of getting a GTO myself, and I've been intrested in Grand Prix GXPs lately. I'm sure there's plenty others here who chose to buy a Pontiac (or even a Buick or Cadillac) after starting off in Chevys.
BOF cars don't need to be large. We're talking GMT355, not 360 or 900. Plus, I see lots of lowered S10, Tacomas, Colorados, Dakotas with modded suspensions, wheels, etc. around. It's not like we're reinventing the wheel here...
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Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Okay, I'm back.
GTO. Why was the original GTO so successful? Because, it was an exciting package, available in multiple configurations - including various body styles - for really, really CHEAP! $296 on any LeMans coupe/hardtop/convertible.
GTO. Why was the original GTO so successful? Because, it was an exciting package, available in multiple configurations - including various body styles - for really, really CHEAP! $296 on any LeMans coupe/hardtop/convertible.
On the surface, the first GTOs may seem cheap. But the things were far more stripped than the cheaper Chevelle SS (which at the time was limited to 327ci) and base GTOs weren't very quick unless you bought the factory offered, dealer installed options. If I remember correctly, the SS327s were about as quick, and handled much better.
Ok, 400 hp for 25K might be excessive....maybe that one should get an LS4....that's up for discussion. As far as the 4th gen analogy.....those cars didn't sell because they had absolutely no appeal whatsoever to the general public. NONE! I'm talking exciting Pontiac cars here, with expressive styling, good looking wheels, cool interiors....for an incredible price!!.....see where I'm going. The 4th gen analogy is not a good comparo.
Originally Posted by AAAAAAA
...Youg people are into the "tuner scene" because franckly its the only thing available to them. If there was an available RWD variant of a small performance oritentated vehicule that remained somewhat practical and looked "hot", maybe they would start to gravitate towards it...
The reason the tuner market even exists is because hand-me-down Honda Civic sedans from parents were once dirt cheap to insure, Honda had a pretty impressive aftermarket and factory parts list, the engines were about as big as a Thanksgiving turkey, and about as easy to work on, and in typical youth fashion, they were the latest tech.
Tuners bought up every used RWD Nissan Silvia, Toyota Supra, Mazda RX7, etc... they could get their hands on, while walking by Camaros & Mustangs (though the Stang has had bigger success since their "cammer" became aftermarket friendly). Even Neons became popular with tuners.
Cobalt is the best bet with that group. Today, if it isn't a FWD 4 cylinder that can be pumped up, fergetaboutit!
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How about a cheap, fast, GTO for Pontiac?
Originally Posted by formula79
I am pretty sure that Charlie would not be suggesting a a truck based Camaro.....yet a GTO is okay..and a perfect solution.