Pontiac needs something. Something it can call it's own. Something beyond rebadges. I'd like to consider it a GM version of Mazda, but it's apparent that Saturn won't leave Pontiac much room for that.

Jack Keebler mentioned in GM Fastlane last month, something about a line of small, agile, RWD cars. The speculation has been that this line might be for Pontiac. And that this line might be based off of Kappa. Frankly, I think a 2+2 or 2+3 Kappa would have so many packaging compromises, it would be a non-product.....requiring a whole new architecture.
So, would GM invest 1 billion dollars or more, for a new small car architecture for Pontiac? Welp, what do you think? I say...I'd doubt it.

So what to do? I think Pontiac needs exciting, yet affordable products. I think this whole Pontiac-BMW connection is so silly, it needs to be dropped immediately. I think Pontiac should appeal to young people....and have products which are attainable by them.
You know - the other Bel Air thread got me thinking. Perhaps it's Pontiac that needs an affordable, BOF line of RWD cars. Something with some hot sheetmetal. Yes, we're talking about a GMT355 based car. GMT355 won't give you the dynamics of an M3, but it sure would be affordable.

How about a 5 passenger, coupe/sedan, with GMT355's upcoming 3.7L, I5, of around 250-260 hp.....starting price of around $18,000? Maybe call it Tempest.

How about a muscular 5 passenger coupe version, with LS2 (or equivalent), six speed, 18" wheels, big brakes, starting at $25,500? Maybe call it GTO. How about a GTO convertible?

What do you guys think?

 

That could make sense. For those prices, it would be an interesting niche to go after. Unfortunately, if other brands from GM are offering better handling cars for the same prices, I have a feeling they would get killed in the press. Ultimately though, it's about power and style. Affordability you've already got, so I'd say they could be winners.

 

It’s a thought, but how Pontiac executes it is a totally different thing, I don’t have a lot of faith in that division of GM anymore...

Of any division, Pontiac lacks direction more than any other. They need a cultural change and a niche to focus on.

You say they should focus on the younger crowd, well I can see that. I'm 22.

But I just don’t see what Pontiac is today.

 

You are gonna attract younger buyers with BOF RWD cars?

Sorry Charlie...this one is a non starter...goes against everything the youth market is moving towards now. It would be like marketing 4" exhaust tips and interior neon liightsas options on the Crown Victoria.

Also...I have my doubts that they can do a car off the 355 without looking akward.

I would like to see Pontiac compete with Acura or Infinity more than anything.

 

Pontiac needs to do something. It almost doesn't matter what. I still think they should place a bullseye on Nissan's share and go for it - it's that sort of focus that can turn the weight of GM's brand system into leverage.

 

I think the Grand Prix fits where Pontiac needs to be with all it's cars. It is visually exciting (compared to the other W-body's), has unique options, and is the best "total performance" car on the platform. I would have a hard time seeing Impala buyers cross shopping the GP.

90% of Pontiac's problem is styling. They are too boring and import like. With Saturn headed there...they need to say screw that and go back to the aggressive styling. Not cladding....but cars styled like the Firebird or last gen Grand Prix...or even last Grand Am. Cars that say I am young and still want to have fun.

 

Yes! And why not?

Are you saying that younger buyers only seek out unibody cars? Of course not....95% would be clueless, one way or the other. The key, I think, is being able to deliver hot cars which are incredibly affordable. 355 gives you that potential.

 

Well start off with the import craze...it seems most younger buyers out there desire small sporty FWD cars (Scion, Honda, etc)...not RWD ones based on a truck.

I just don't see many 20 year olds saying screw that tC, I want that Pontiac sedan that rides up high like a dumptruck and is named after a car from the 60's....that would be mad paht yo!

I am 25, and love RWD cars....but I doubt I would even buy something like you suggested...simply because I am not sure GM could make it look enough like a car. You were at the Heritage Center and saw the Bel Air....it just DOES not look right.

It may seem cool to you Charlie...but RWD cars based on a truck platform is the exact polar opposite of what appeals to youth in the market right now.

Now...had they built the HHR off the GMT-355 platform, that would have been hella cool.

 

Sounds good in theory. In practice, well that's a different story.

Keep in mind the new Camaro will most likely give GM a car with V8 for around 25K(base price).

And the late word, (before it's cancellation) was the next gen. GTO would also be built in Australia. This mean low volume(15-18,000 cars per yr) & and high base price (30-35K).

Still a V8 powered 2+2 RWD coupe is a really good idea for Pontiac.

 

I honestly dont see that car happening for 18k. It wouldnt make much sense when you have the smaller, less powerful, (although better handling) solstice for more than that. I dont know, it seems like it would canabalize pontiac a little bit. To make it a fun hot car they would have to do a LOT of suspension work to it to make it somewhat agile.

Being 20 i can say tha i would probably be somewhat in that target market your aiming at. If it could be done for that low a price and looked good and had good interior that didnt feel or look cheap then it may work. The reason why so many youngings were into imports like civic and what not were because they were cheap and thats often what their parents would give them say if they got a new car. But when the teens and young 20 yr olds would buy them typically its because they were cheap (especially used). The problem for camaros were i think people always assumed that bc it was a sports car it would be too expensive and didnt look at it much at all, when in reality it was quite the opposite (especially used). People always assume my car was relatively expensive and they are always surprised when i tell them they can easily get a good used one for under $10k.

I also dont thing that a gmt355 car would be the small and agile car they are after.

I say they stretch kappa 5-6 inches in the wheel base and maybe some more outside of the wheels. I've heard that GM engineers have successfully stretched kappa to show GM brass it could be done but they werent interested. Stretching kappa has to be cheaper than reengineering a whole new chassis for these cars.

 

I see alot of problems here, Charlie. Some of them have the potential of making GM's problems worse. Here's why.

1st, while Pontiac should be affordable, they shouldn't be priced with Chevys. Anything from Pontiac costing $18K isn't Pontiac. To be honest, I'd even venture that the Solstice is even priced too low, but gets a pass because Chevrolet offers nothing like it.

Next, Mazda's position at Ford is as an import division. Mazda's counterpart at GM is of course, Saturn. My disagreement with the notion that Pontiac should be a Mazda can be summed up in 2 words: Grand Prix. That car is the soul and the spirit of what Pontiac is. The '05 & '06 GTO also represents what Pontiac is all about. Sophisticated performance, great interiors, not a feeling of cost cutting anywhere (unlike Chevy's DNA of low price, high volume, & cheap performance). Pontiac is like nothing else, unless you compare it to a lowball SVT. But an American "BMW" isn't far off either.

Pontiac should NOT need to appeal to young people. That's Chevrolet, and (grudgingly) Saturn. Making every car division appeal to "young people" is a recipie for disaster. Buick has a particular focus and market, just like Pontiac should. Pontiac has been a division that people who started in Chevrolets move up to. I can see someone who started out in a Cavalier or Camaro moving up to a GTO, and in fact, many have. I can also see someone who ran a Z28 when in their early 30s, now hauling a Grand Prix GXP now that they have a family and need those other 2 doors (and don't want a cheap, utility-like Malibu).

The body on frame idea is good for those who want a big car (or at least a modern version of one). But when I look out my apartment window at the (24 year old) neighbor's black, BBS rimmed, & lowered Honda Accord sedan, you're going to have a tough time convincing me he'd be willing to buy a truck based car with BOF construction. Car enthusiasts know cars, and those young buyers who aren't, are after low priced practical, small, and most important, easy to insure cars.

Cobalt is doing extremely well with 1st time and younger buyers. This badge engineered version Pontiac is planning is aimed squarely at the youth and 1st time buyer that wants something more than a Chevrolet.

Finally, I'd be dead set against any $25K GTO. There is no reason whatsoever that a GTO (let alone ANYTHING with 400 horsepower!!) should be available at a price that low. Impala SSs run 26K. A GXP Grand Prix runs $27K. Why should Pontiac's top performance car, and a car that would inevitably be more of a Grand Tourer with a longer standard equptment list and more bells and whistles be cheaper than the average price of a 2002 Camaro Z28 4 years ago? Even a new Chevy Monte Carlo SS runs 26 large.



Two of the most deceptive ideas based on misconceptions I can think of is 1) People buy the cheapest vehicle, and 2) Young people buy new fast cars.

People tend to go for the most distinctive and the best value. PT Cruisers outsold cheaper Neons based on the same chassis. The same happened with the new Beetle and the Golf. People ignored $23K base Z28s, and loaded up average prices well over the $25K mark. No one buys strippers anymore.

Young people have to deal with insurence rates and no credit. Most all of them get around by buying used. Female buyers tend to be the lions share majority of those buying new cars at a young age (not far fetched when you put yourself in position of a dad, and putting dependability ahead of everything else to the point you'd rather get your daughter a new car rather than taking a chance on a used one). Us guys tend to get used.


I can see what you're trying to get at with your proposal. But from where I see it, it not only takes away from Chevy's role at GM, it also dilutes Pontiac's as well. Pontiac has a distinctive place in the market, and there isn't a thing wrong with Pontiac's demographics. Pontiac's problems are very obvious:

*They cut models with no real replacements:
Bonneville, Firebird, Sunfire, and Grand Am were all cut without anything to replace it or were replaced by smaller volume models (the whole 200K Grand Am line was replaced with essentially a single model sedan). It's pretty silly to kill 1/3 of my lineup and then complain when my sales have dropped by 1/3.

*They need new models:
Grand Prix was essentially a redo of the last model, and has been run for a long time (by today's standards) without a rebody or styling update. The G6 stands as the only Pontiac in recent years that actually replace a model, instead of that model being killed at the end of their life.


The GTO seemed to hit their stride in sales at $29-30K MSRP. This fits in perfectly with a Chevy version coming in at Monte Carlo's $26-27K.

 

Some are going to flame me, but the new GTO IS cheap, fast, and a GTO. It stacks up QUITE well for a car that costs thousands if not tens of thousands less than its competitors. A 2006 GTO still costs less than a fully optioned 2002 WS.6 or SS. The days of getting a nice (note: not a great motor wrapped inside a poorly built car) V8 RWD car from GM are gone from what I can tell. IMHO, You are just fooling yourself if you really think that you're going to get a LS2 powered sports car/sedan for $25,000. For that price, GM will have to cut corners,and honestly another 4th gen isn't what GM needs IMHO.

 

Charlie I think this lineup would sell well and could be profitable but like Guy said it doesn't really fit into GM's game plan with Pontiac. Would it be cool to make Pontiac low cost RWD pocket rockets? Sure but would it be profitable and be the right decision for GM to make for the long haul? I don't think so.

I could see a modern day coach builder building GMT355 compact cars, GMT360 midsizers, and a GMT900 fullsize plus RWD car, modern day B-body if you will. They could offer more car for the money than any other brand due to shared components and lower engineering costs. And selling quite a few, certainly enough to cover manufacturing costs. In fact if I had the cash to setup a large business, like winning the powerball, this would be something I would have looked into. But alas I don't have either the knowledge or means to produce this.

 

I agree about the Bel Air. You're right, it doesn't look right. But that doesn't mean a car couldn't look right. I wouldn't advocate a Bel Air-like look. It would have to be exciting to look at and maybe more importantly, have the right stance. Otherwise, it really wouldn't have the desired effect.

 

Maybe.....maybe not.