that's why Toyota has Lexus...

 

Screw American cars they suck. Why would I buy a POS Malibu over a Honda Civic?

America is not the free market it used to be and it is paying for its socialization. Free markets make the best products for the cheapest price. America is turning out the worst products for more money.

PS all you buy American morons your Z28s were built in Canada and most of GMs crap is not made here.

"Buy America" is fundamentaly flawed because the spirit of america is to buy the best for less. We used to be the best at making things good for less now we cannot compeate with the rest of the world and its our own fault.

 

Ponykillr, If you dont like American made cars (yes I know many of the cars that we think are American made or made out of the US. The same is with Japanize cars for a good part of them are made here in the US)
Then why do you own them? Why are you on an American Car site?

Sorry Guys But I think that who ever gets a head up on what the public will buy in the next few years will win the race. I do hope its GM.

 

this is so all so much BS Red. here's an example for you...

The Russian airospace industry is far from its glorydays under the Old Evil Empire. why is that? many Russians are quite upset that Russia's own Airlines are buying all of their new airplanes from BOEING. And you know what the Airlines tell them? The exact same thing you're thinking right now. They say, "Its a free market now. We can choose to spend our money how we feel is appropriate to do so. And we feel that buying from Boeing makes better business sense as they are more solidly built than domestic product and we feel they are more safe for our passangers."

will you argue with that? of course not! because its more cashflow for Boeing, your darling company. well guess what? US airlines are operating in a free market too. so if you're goint to whine about them buying foreign planes because they aren't being "patriotic" or something, lobby the gov't to close down the market to foreign goods. good luck with that, btw.

changes your perspective a bit when you think of it like that, doesn't it?

as far as your last paragraph, if the gov't wants to have more direct intervention with the business sphere, they should attempt to do so, by making deals with domestic companies via insentives and such. but the question is, does this help, or hurt us in the long run? i'm not an economist, and I have no insider information, so I'm not going to say one way or another. but i'm sure there are plenty opinions on this.

 

Let's not go overboard here. Ford and GM do certain cars very well and give you the best value for your money bar none. Example Mustang, Corvette, and the reemerging Cadillac line. In fact Corvette sent all three of the best sports cars from Japan packing, 300ZX, Supra, and RX-7... BECAUSE it offered superior value ie more performance for the same money along with reasonable quality.

But in the example you give you're dead right. The Big 2 better start to make mainstream cars that are profitable, not cheaper. Yeah it's great for the consumer to be able to buy a Malibu for $2K less than equivalent Civic, but GM didn't make any money on that deal, Honda does.

You're also wrong on the effect of buy American. It does help the U.S. worker because after GM pays its Canadian wages, overhead, and taxes, what's left (however little) stays here in the U.S. for hiring design and engineering and whatever new projects get funded.

SO it has value, but the consumer is correct in totally ignoring that when the foreign made car is simply superior. I was in Lowe's hardware today to buy some hedge trimmer shears. There was made in Taiwan one for $14.95 and a made in U.S. one for $24.95. I bought the U.S. one because it was made better. It had forged blades instead of stamped steel and the hinge bolt was much beefier. It was also smoother to use. That's what consumer's do. I always buy American if I get real value for it. Just put as much effort in making Cavaliers as that U.S. company did in making those shears or GM does in making the Corvette, and guess what? GM will sell as many Cavaliers but make money doing it.

 

Now now, let's not ignore facts here. Airbus is government subsidized consortium. It gets serious cash from the member countries public piggybank. Despite that, Boeing was on the verge of knocking Airbus out of the game 3 years ago when they had won almost every airline contract to be had, on the basis of a truly superior product. Airbus and EU were screaming bloody murder and threatening protectionism and tariffs.

But guess what? Boeing made the classic mistake that almost every aggressive company makes. They couldn't supply the demand. They could not get the planes made fast enough to deliver on the contracts, and there's no consumer more pissed off on this planet than an airline that doesn't the planes it ordered. Boeing lost most of those contracts and worse got a bad rep AND gave the government funded Airbus TIME to recover and finish deployment of its latest generation of aircraft to compete. Now Airbus has the upperhand almost totally in part to the planning gaffe by Boeing which allowed the unfairly subsidized Airbus to get off the mat and recover.

So right now the airlines are buying the best aircraft for the money, and it's Airbus. But it coulda been so different.

 

Good, I'm glad to see that the company who focuses the most on quality control, quality of engineering, and customer satisfaction come out ahead. Maybe the 'big 3' will finally start getting the hint that even we Americans want a little less hype and a little more long-term solidity in the cars we spend our hard-earned cash on.

I've gotta say if I was rich I wouldn't care, if I traded in cars every couple of years, I wouldn't care. But if I was like the other 90% of America and didn't want to look at my car and have to wonder how many more miles I could get out of it if I lost my job or whatever... I'd prefer to buy the car with a little less performance, a little less marketing 'zest', and a lot more outright dependability.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not Toyota's cheerleader here... I'm the guy yelling at the big three (the 'home' team, to us) and saying, hey look over here at what I'm driving! I love it! Other people are starting to do the same, too! You're losing business! Getting any ideas yet?

 

Threxx - You have a point, and obviously millions have already voted with their checkbooks along the same line. But a lot of car buyers will NOT stand for less performance and fewer innovations like HUD, TapShift, XM and a factory supercharger which gives another 40 hp with the simple addition of a $69 pulley. I'm one of them... and the other nice thing is that since my 04 Grand Prix was made in one of the most award-winning plants in North America, I'll most likely be enjoying high quality and reliability for years to come!

 

I have the same exact situation... lived it first hand.

I worked through highschool and college at the Stambaugh-Thompson Company... A local hardware chain of 19-21 stores that was in business fron 1846 to around 1999.

To make a very very very long story short... DIY Home Warehouse moved into one of our areas... folled by Lowe's and then Home Depot... the 150+ year company surved a total of about 3 years after the big boys came in and took over.

And to be hoenst, their pricing wasn't even all that much better... if at all.

Then, when Stambaugh's went under... the community was in shock... Stambaugh's was a bit of a local icon (as much as a hardware store can be)... and now it's gone forever, because of this exact mentaility.

 

Times change and so does the economy. It's called survival of the fittest, and over the long run it ends up making our economy bigger, stronger, and more efficient than ever unless the fittest also becomes the only (monopoly).

My point is that I think it's a bit pointless to say "Well everything logical tells me I'd prefer to buy a Toyota, and heck, they're even built here in the US unlike many of the 'domestic' vehicles I might buy. But since the profits, in the end, go to Japan, I'm going to buy the less attractive product".

I can understand how this point is arguable depending on whether you value survival of the fittest or you are willing to sacrafice your personal comfort for the good of your local billion dollar company.

The way I see it is that GM is the biggest car company in the world. They don't need our help financially speaking, they already make plenty of money and they have more leverage and heft than any other car company out there, period. What they do from here is in their hands, and people buying from them simply because they are GM and not Toyota is about the equivalent to sending the US Government a 500 dollar bonus check along with your taxes to help the national debt. The problem isn't you, it's what caused the problem in the first place. And GM could easily fix it. Matter o' fact they say that they are fixing it... and honestly I hope so- but they've been saying this for a long time now.

 

Or... you could argue the "follow the herd" factor.

Everyone loved Stambaugh's... heck, we had people just come in and walk around to talk to us... we had "regulars"... at a hardware store... :

Then these big-box names that people see painted on the side of a NASCAR racer... Home Depot... Lowes... show up, and the herd moves over to them because it "must be the right thing".

Maybe this doens't quite equal the situation of a company on the scale of GM... but I think there is a valid point here.

 

Now I've never driven a toyota, but american cars arent quality? What are you smoking? My family owns 5 cars, one of which is a 2 year old aztek which ill leave out. the other four are two 85 firebirds, a 94 full size ford van, and a 95 mazda. the mazda is the newest with the least mileage at 130k miles. the ford has 133k. the firebirds have 190k and 205k respectively, and all the american cars run like a top. Really the only one we have trouble with is the mazda. Heck I could argue bad quality on japanese cars (cardboard interior door panels, power lock switches that break off in the door, alternators that die when you roll down all 4 windows at once, etc.) if you check out our mazda. if I want quality, I hop in the american cars. And our family has owned plenty of cars, how about our 77 monza and 78 grenada bought brand new that we kept until 1996 with well over 200k miles on both. Only reason we sold them was because my parents were doing well for themselves and bought new cars. sorry, bad american quality is all a bunch of garbage.

 

All Im saying is if it takes the Us to plead to the patriotic loyalties of Americans to get them to buy stuff over foreign stuff then US stuff is junk. Good quality at a resonable price sells itself. Sorry But the big 3 have been getting beat up in simple bang for teh buck quality for years.

My loyalty is to the best quality at the best price. I am loyal to who ever makes the fastest car for the cheapest price. If Dodge made the fastest car for the $ id be a dodge fan or ford vice versa. It happened that GM made the Z so I drive a Z. The 95 Z was by far the best bang for the buck then thats why I bough 2 acctually.

The avarage American has figured out that the big 3 have been draping themselves in the US flag and selling crap. Now everyone thinks all US cars are crap even if they are better. Its the big 3s fualt for ruining the US car reputation now it will be hard to get that trust back. Only one way make the best product for the least $, simple. No more "buy US" propaganda.

 

I'm not going to go through all of this again. I never generalized and said that all American cars suck, and I never said that all Japanese cars rule. But as a rule, Honda and Toyota seem to be more durable and better-made than your average GM, Ford, or Chrysler vehicles. (With exceptions, as always). We are past that point. The point I'm trying to make here is that I hope GM starts noticing this now that Toyota is blowing them away in terms of profit. I sure would like to be able to buy an American made car as a daily driver and feel good about it- not like I bought something that could potentially be a time-bomb waiting to happen.

And FWIW that Mazda you have is for the most part actually a Ford.

 

I kinda hate to show you guys this, but you NEED to see it.
IBM Tech Jobs Being Shipped Out

And to refresh our memories of this topic covered ...
Recall this conversation?
All I can say is that I have now seen this committment in MANY forms from MANY big leaders in industry. IBM is just the latest.
Here's a quote from
THIS ARTICLE in Chemical Processing Magazine...
"More U.S. chemical companies are planning to tap that underutilized labor pool. Earlier this month, for example, Raymond LeBoeuf, CEO of Pittsburgh-based PPG Industries, said that he sees his company "bringing new research to market"–research that, he says, will be increasingly carried out in the former Soviet Union, India and China. "

Who doesn't like to get "a bargain" or a "good deal" from time to time, but remember that there IS a price to pay for indescretion - sooner or later we, as a nation, WILL pay. Look for products that are made in the USA this holiday season. Try - at least try - to help our domestic jobs stay here.

And in our excitement about the holidays, could we all please take a moment to remember those serving overseas with a US flag on thier fatigues, those of us here at home who may not have a job but have kids expecting Santa to deliver, and most of all don't forget your family, friends, and neighbors. They just may be the next ones to lose everything.