guionM, I agree with 99% of what you wrote. No quabbles from me, except on this one statement above.

I don't think the consumer always knows whats best. If we (the consumers) did know what was best, we'd never invest in Enron, we'd never have let the S&L's take us for $11-trillion, we'd never get scammed by a shyster on E-bay, and we'd have no need for lemon laws or returns desks at department stores.

To be frank, the average consumer is quite uneducated in the matters involved in his/her purchase. I would guess that less than 15% of people who buy a fancy blender for their home would have any idea what goes on inside that blender, much less where and how the parts were made. They are simply after the action provided by the product - the result - and could care less what goes into creating that result. This goes directly into a point that 94LightningGal brought up... content. KUDOS to you Gloria, you are the first to imply that the content of the vehicle is traceable (mandated by government) and quantified. A DOUBLE-KUDOS to you for giving a hoot and making a consciencious choice in your purchase!!

Fact is, I never realized the real depth and ramifications of my spending until I took econ in college. There's much more to spending the dollar than "profits for the supplier". Jason E has already cited some values, and I eluded to GNP in an earlier post. It goes so deep as to positioning the nation against others in the world for economic might, and power. Buy American made products from American-based companies, and our GNP/GDP goes up. Buy from a foreign nation and their GNP/GDP goes up. The highest one gets the most clout and economic strength - simple concept - but either way, the consumer got their product.

There is no doubt that the domestic cars went to sh1+ in a handbasket during the late 70's and early 80's. It was a big plan that went way wrong - the carmakers wanted every person to buy a new car every 3-4 years, so the planned life was 4 years (and hence, so was the financing which is how they made moremoney on interest). The imports simply practiced good quality techniques, and killed us on that basis. But like Jason said - those days are long gone, yet the consumers either... 1)are unaware of that fact and don't want to know it, or 2)have written-off the American car for good in their minds and will never give them another chance. YES, I blame that decision (to remain blind to the current state of the market) on the average consumer. And I feel justified in doing so.

It's like the guy who went to vote for our president, but he voted not based on the facts, arguments, or positions that the candidates discussed in debates... instead the voter chose based on the candidates hair-do or clothes - one guy "looked better" and the other guy just "looked crooked". Hell, if that's how you are going to vote, do me a favor and don't vote at all!

The same principles should apply to your everyday purchases. You should know what you are about to buy, where it came from, who made it, and where your money is going after the purchase. If Wal-Mart has a cute T-shirt on the rack for $8.99, and you like it... do me this favor... look at the tag and see where it's made. If it isn't a Hanes, Beefy-T, Jerzees, Russell, or some other American brand, start asking yourself how bad you really need it. Look at the content - is it 50/50 cotton/poly or 100% cotton? Does it have the US cotton symbol (looks like a "fluffy" tree) on the tag? If not, please think about this purchase. I am sitting in front of this terminal right now dressed as follows - a Hanes Beefy-T shirt (100% cotton, shirt made in Winston-Salem, NC, at the Hanes Mill Rd facility), Lee relaxed fit jeans (made in Mocksville, NC at the VF sportswear plant on hwy 601 N), Hanes socks (made in Winston-Salem at the Stratford Rd facility), Hanes underwear (same place), and my shoes are Dexter Weather-Walkers (made in New England - Maine I think). My point is, I DO WATCH WHAT I BUY.

Before I go, I want to extend a sincere Thank-You!!! to Gloria, Jason, and everyone else for being consciencious buyers, and for giving a hoot.
Please don't give-up or get frustrated about explaining your position and why you feel this way to anyone who will listen. If you don't explain it to them, it's likely no-one will, and we all know that knowledge is power.

I have no argument for the upper crust and top management who seem hell-bent to reduce costs and increase profits, even when it means doing unpatriotic things to make it happen. This new "business model" is nothing less than poison to our own economy. It's like steroids for atheletes... they make you look great, and perform at super-human levels, at least for a while, but sooner or later it will bring you down, potentially to the bottom. Anybody recall Lyle Alzado? SAME THING with this offshore movement of jobs, and offshore sourcing of manufacturing - they are like steroids for our big companies, bringing them big profits and returns in the near future - but we (Americans) WILL PAY FOR THIS SHORT-TERM GAIN IN THE END with our jobs, economic might, and possibly even our sanctity.

I am not a radical, an extremist, an activist, protester, demonstrator, or anything like that at all. I'm just a guy living in rural NC with 8 years of college in my head, pride in my heart, and a very patriotic heritage. My immediate family has over 40 years of service in the Navy combined, and we have made sacrifices to help enrich and empower this greatest nation in the world, which we love dearly. Patriotism is not a casual thing to me, and with all my heart and intelligence, I really feel that we are not heading in a good direction right now, and we need to realize that and fix it - quick!

A good lesson in this whole subject can be learned from the study of Rome. Anyone interested in how a superpower (that everyone thinks is invincible) can be brought down to common dwellings without firing a single shot should read about the rise and fall of the Roman empire. You'll come away with a new view of economic power and vulnerability, I promise.

OK - I'm done for a while, again.

Just remember guionM, it was P.T. Barnum that was famous for saying "There's a sucker born every minute", and he made a mint on that principle too.

 

Wow !!!! great post !!!!!

Thanks for the kudos, btw......... its always nice to know someone actually reads my posts.

You really hit the nail on the head there. The average consumer is ............ dare I say it.............. stupid.......... and uninformed. They let others tell them what they should buy, instead of researching it themselves.

Case in point............. I have people ask me what car/truck they should buy all the time. They know that I am a motorhead, and am really into vehicles. Thus they feel they can trust my educated opinion. If I tell them to buy a Ford Focus, they would look at me like I was on crack. All they have heard is about all the recalls in the first two years. They know nothing about the fact that the car had only 1 tiny recall (567 SVT cars) in 2002, and none in 2003. They know nothing about the fact that the quality of the car is currently equal or better than the vaunted Civic. All they know is the hype that the media told them (btw I recommend the Focus over the Cavalier due to the Cavaliers very poor crash ratings, and poor driving dynamics......... not because it is a GM product). Rather than do actual research or "gasp" actually drive the product............ they rely on media hype.

Coming from the automotive repair industry, I try to explain to people the difference in cost of parts and repairs for domestics vs foreign vehicles.

Much of the time I feel I am talking to a wall.

ProudPony, if want to really depress yourself sometime.......... go into the baby section of your favorite store. Look at the source of 99% of the merchandise there. 95% of it will say China, the other 4% will say Taiwan. The brand names are all domestic. Having my first child really opened my eyes to this problem. I would gladly pay a few $$ more to have these products built in the U.S.

Well, at least I don't have to worry about my job, or my husbands, going away to foreign competition. I am a mortgage loan officer........ and he is once again a truck driver (after 9 years of having his auto repair and towing business).

 

Proudpony, I should explain why I think the consumer should be the last person blamed (my last post was getting too long, so I skipped it).

The consumers are reactionary. Something becomes a craze, they gotta have one too. A couple of well reported tragedies, and they run away from it. It also takes years to build a good reputation, and only a short period of time to tear it down.

Consumers compare products based on what's important to them, and it's up to the people in marketing and sales to make people aware of things they perhaps aren't considering & to overcome bias.

Perfect case study in not blaming consumers is the SN95 Mustang vs the 4th gen Camaro. Is the consumer to blame for Camaro's demise? Only if the Mustang also died. Compare the 2 programs. Ford invested money to keep the Mustang looking fresh, Ford advertized the Mustang, sales people actually knew something about the Mustang, it was packaged in a way that more people wanted. Meanwhile, GM invested next to no money in Camaro, after a certain year ther was no advertizements, and it's packaging (it is a BIG car) turned people away.

More advertizing would have pointed out that Camaro's powerplants got better fuel economy & more horsepower, making consumers aware of it's dent resistant doors & fenders would have won a few more people, having a 6 speed manual over the competition's 5 would have won a few more. But a commitment to make it competitive in the market and a restyle or 2 would have done wonders. Would we blame consumers for buying Mustangs instead of Camaro's? Of course not.

But when Camaro comes back, it MUST completely blow people away in all catagories to top Mustang's momemtum, because by that time the Stang's going to have the momemtum.

Much the same holds true in the American vs Import marketplace. Punching out on quality in the 70s & 80s, and running designs into the ground in the 90s was long enough to send hordes of people to import brands, despite relative quality parity today. Like the next Camaro, it's going to take something extremely dramatic to overcome perceptions enough to bring people back to American cars (hence, the hord of new US models & designs coming over the next few years).

If I want you to buy my product over someone else's, it's my responsibility to my people who work for me to produce a better product, & convince you that my product is better than the other guy's. Iacocca & Peterson an extrordinary job of that in the 80s with Chrysler and Ford respectively. Bill Ford is doing it today.

Those of us truly into cars take the time to seek information on our own, but unfortunately the general public isn't & don't. If they were, we wouldn't need marketing departments, sales departments, and advertizing..... then again, that would save an automaker a ton of money....
(**lighthearted sarcasm** )

 

I like to think that I learn new things from places other than a TV screen. I've taken a few Sociology classes in college so far, and have learned a lot of this stuff. Not to mention, I get out there in the real world to learn new things also. We're not going to see a drop in employment because of the lack of computer jobs. That is assured by almost anyone who knows anything about our economy right now. Theres people getting computer tech educations that teach them more than just how to "turn on a computer."

I'm not just talking about a nation of computer geeks. Theres going to be a lot of manual labor needed too. We lead the world in technology. That is our stronghold for employment. W/ the 0 population that our nation is becoming, there might be a shortage of people to keep up w/ new jobs that are going to become available to the U.S. in the next few decades. Hopefully we can pace ourselves a little better into the transition.

I read in the newspaper a few days ago that our unemployment is at a new low since the 2001 resession. Of course thats going to fluctuate for a while, but w/ next generation technology not too far away, we're going to have to worry about our middle-lower class not having a decent income.

You missed where I said "Everyday things." A car isn't an everyday purchase for me...And there are other things I support more than patriotism, but lets not get into that again...

 

I agree with everything you said, especialy the Camaro vs Mustang stuff...

One exception to the rule that came to mind, though, is Ford Explorer... The Explorer/Firestone debacle was one of the most published automotive problems I can remember... yet Explorer survived.

 

Mobid, I feel ya a little. Im a junior CS major but I was lucky to get a J2EE co op job making solid money, more importantly very good expirence. Do you guys have a career center? Check them, they should be able to help you. I think Im going to get my MBA though, as I figure a grunt programmer will be easy to replace with someone over seas, but I want to be able to lead those offshore teams, hopefully securing a job.

 

I would disagree on both counts.

People know what they want, for better or worse, but often can't or won't explain a buying preference. It's the purpose of marketing wonks to anticipate and get ahead of the trend. If the American manufacturers haven't been in tune with the buying public, its their fault not the consumers.

Issues like the "balance of trade" and "gross domestic product" aren't concerns for the individual. Affordability, reliability -and yes-desirability are the concerns of the consumer. Your next automotive purchase isn't going to save the planet, bring Mid-East peace or change the course of globalization.

It all comes down to getting a car you can live with. Quite frankly, there isn't a single car that I want at my local GM, Ford or D-C dealers. Sure, I could order a Chevy Tahoe or Avalanche, but that would be the only way for me to find exactly what I want. It ain't gonna happen, though. I'm sick of the wait, sick of the pricing game and really sick of the tired old products. Is a dated, undersized and over-priced Tahoe worth the money? Heck No! Is it about the most competitive domestic product out there? Sadly, yes.

Then I look at the meager inventory at my Toyota dealer. The discounting isn't great, but I could live with an AWD Sienna, 4Runner or Sequoia. The packages are understandable, and the safety features are all there. I also now that I would't regret the purchase.

What's more important: Having a car you actually want to buy or making a political statement?

 

Did anybody else read the article in the new motor trend about the new chrysler crossfire?

I was struck by the second paragraph where it mentioned that the new crossfire contents are 1% american 99% foreign, and it's badged as an american car.

Chrysler is truly being gutted.

 

How are those selling btw? I saw 4 on a local lot here when I drove by the other day but I have yet to one on the road.

 

What I forgot to mention was that I'm in California. This state is getting rapidly over populated by both migrants and immigrants while jobs and businesses are actually moving away thanks to our awesome* legislature, high taxes and deteriorating business climate. Unless its entertainment, we're still #1 one there.

So I even if overall unemployement around the country is down, its most likely up here in Cali. Plus we had the highest consentration of tech jobs (in the SF bay area) a few years ago which all but vanished now so the climate has changed drastically. I'm figuring I'm going to search nation wide for my job once I'm close to being done as opposed to staying here like I previously hoped.

Thanks for the encouragements, btw. I'm going to stick it out. Good luck to you guys as well.





*not really that awesome.

 

All jobs that require college degree's (BA's, BS', BE's.. Master, docs, and phd's) are/can be moved overseas. and their willing to work 1/5 to 1/10th of what people get paid here to do.


Alot of new tech is being/can be reserached and designed overseas. All the jobs associated with that tech can be fielded overseas.

Because of these two points, this is why I'm cynical of the argument "America will simply move to the new tech fields"... Take bioengineering for example.. Besides the few eggheads that really thing of the crazy stuff, what else is in that? research - can be done overseas. design and manfacture of new equipment - can be done overseas.. the "grunts" of lab work and datamining.. that can be done overseas..


Top it off, there's lots of new emerging markets thats growing at a rapid rate, thanks to the influx of money flowing in from jobs... Imagine if they take over the US as the #1 consumer market. Wouldn't you want business analysts and managers over in those area's?


Then who becomes the next low cost geo to bring up?


I really hate to think about it, but the future looks really dark right now.

 

/yep,

that is the unfortunate part, and it is mostly other counties that ar edoing it, India, China.....So maybe Democracy, er, free market is killing itself? everyone got so used to having over inflated pricing, esp take a look at the housing market.. Over the last 5 years, the prices on houses doubled in my area. doubled, yet my job still pays the same.

I would buy new american if I can afford it, boys, time to invest in oversees markets, cause we are on a one way elivator down.

btw, i am a marketing rep for HP, and yes, most of the jobs, are going oversees, the tech support, seriously, from biz standpoint.....those third world developing nations often have tax free zones to invite business, so from a companies perspective, why pay taxes here and go through the red tape, instead of paying 1/5th the salary, if not less, pay 0 or very little taxes, and now be able to reach the entire world, 24/7?

 

Aeromaks - well why not take it all the way then? export ALL the exportable jobs from the US. But think about it... this will never happen. Once a critical mass of folks get laid off and have 'nothing to do' ( ) they will lobby the living daylights out of Congress, laws will be passed, and the exodus will end. In fact, this has already begun. One reason why it hasn't bloomed already, the American electorate sensed (especially during the dotcom bubble fiasco) that maybe tech salaries were a little inflated. This is just a restoration of equilibrium. And once these underdeveloped countries start getting developed, they'll have the same constraints as the developed ones - organized labor, enviro-nuts and the whole nine yards.

 

not really, because 1) they are communist, 2) or they are extremely corrupt, 3) and they are extremely overpopulated.

these countries will never be "developed" in the sense that you mean (western Europe, North America). EVER.

 

India is one example. Sure they have a population problem... and I wouldn't be surprised to find corruption... but they're doing something right and some of their software firms rival the best in the US from a quality standpoint.