GM Says Volt Has Cost $750M to Develop
12-11-2008, 09:25 AM
#31
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An electric motor coupled with a gasoline "generator" sounds suspiciously similar to a gas/electric hybrid
- I certainly don't see why such should take $700M to develop???
12-11-2008, 09:35 AM
#32
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Personally, I don't see buying a hybrid any time soon, even if the gas gets that high. I don't think their initial high cost is worth the gas savings, which are actually meager. Volt could be different, as could be any electric car that can get me to work and back, and do some errands without using gasoline at all.
However, I do not buy new cars. 2 or 3 years old is a good price point in my opinion for what I get, and thus I don't see myself spending more than $25K CDN on a car. The Volt is out of my price range, considerably, as is Prius (I cannot see spending money on a brand new something that's nothing more than a Tercel with batteries and paying $30K for it).
12-11-2008, 09:41 AM
#33
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I understand the Volt being a revolutionary vehicle. However, GM needs to get back to profitability as soon as possible. Before the financial market melted down, I felt the Volt was a white elephant. Usually, a vehicle like this needs a very healthy company to make sense. The vehicle is obviously going to be a money loser (like the Prius) for as far as the eye can see, so it's best to use it as a halo for a company that can afford the (potentially huge) losses and relatively small sales.
Yeah, the pragmatist in me would tend to agree - but regardless of initial profitability, the Volt will become the poster child for GM. And GM needs something like that about now. This car will be front and center on news programs, magazine covers, office watercooler talk, - who knows, even some Hollywood wackos might be seen in them, going to Spago for lunch.
Considering how much GM spends on money losing programs, this one looks like a bargain.
12-11-2008, 11:17 AM
#34
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Yeah, the pragmatist in me would tend to agree - but regardless of initial profitability, the Volt will become the poster child for GM. And GM needs something like that about now. This car will be front and center on news programs, magazine covers, office watercooler talk, - who knows, even some Hollywood wackos might be seen in them, going to Spago for lunch.
Considering how much GM spends on money losing programs, this one looks like a bargain.
Considering how much GM spends on money losing programs, this one looks like a bargain.
But GM needs a serious, original, 1980s style Taurus sized, bread-and-butter car sales hit to make money to make up for it.
The next Impala and Cruize need to get on the market quickly, needs to be offered in a full lineup (including coupes), and better be styling knockouts.
12-11-2008, 11:42 AM
#35
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Apparently, you and I have very different definitions of what constitutes an all-electric car. 
I'm not a design engineer or scientist nor do I work in automotive design but in my position, I do very much know what such projects cost (and that's about as much as I can say about it and still be able to be in my position tomorrow).
I'm not a design engineer or scientist nor do I work in automotive design but in my position, I do very much know what such projects cost (and that's about as much as I can say about it and still be able to be in my position tomorrow).
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 12-11-2008 at 11:44 AM.
12-11-2008, 03:35 PM
#36
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That's not true. Simply understanding the EMC and safety issues with putting high voltage into a surface transportation vehicle is a big step. I doubt that most people appreciate the challenge of controlling several hundred amps at several hundred volts in an application using components that are expected to be light, compact, and cheap.
I've heard first-hand that GM's EV1 experience was very helpful. The problem is that ten years lapsed, and most of the experienced engineers either moved on to other projects or left the company. This project would have been much easier had it come right on the heals of the EV1.
I've heard first-hand that GM's EV1 experience was very helpful. The problem is that ten years lapsed, and most of the experienced engineers either moved on to other projects or left the company. This project would have been much easier had it come right on the heals of the EV1.
12-11-2008, 04:09 PM
#37
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Most of you seem to have interpreted this article differently than I did.
I read that it will take six years for Volt to generate a return on investment; meaning it will take that long for profits to pay off the initial investment.
That doesn't mean that GM will lose money for every Volt they build. In fact, I specifically remember reading that the high predicted MSRP (~$40k) is specifically because they're so expensive to build, and they're not about to lose money on it.
In the mean time, it is my understanding that every Volt sold, including the first one, will generate at least some positive net income.
Volt uses all-electric propulsion -- the only connections from the gas engine to the wheels are the wires that go from the generator to the battery.
Not to mention, those systems need to operate a couple feet away from human passengers with a reasonable expectation of safety.
I read that it will take six years for Volt to generate a return on investment; meaning it will take that long for profits to pay off the initial investment.
That doesn't mean that GM will lose money for every Volt they build. In fact, I specifically remember reading that the high predicted MSRP (~$40k) is specifically because they're so expensive to build, and they're not about to lose money on it.
In the mean time, it is my understanding that every Volt sold, including the first one, will generate at least some positive net income.
That's not true. Simply understanding the EMC and safety issues with putting high voltage into a surface transportation vehicle is a big step. I doubt that most people appreciate the challenge of controlling several hundred amps at several hundred volts in an application using components that are expected to be light, compact, and cheap.
12-11-2008, 05:43 PM
#38
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I can understand that you are getting more mileage out of the gasoline burned than in a traditional ICE powertrain but "all electric" still seems a miss-characterization to me.
Maybe my "confusion" is that I've also heard this referred to as a "Zero" emissions vehicle and I don't see how that can be if you've got a gasoline engine on board (whatever the gas engine is used for).
12-11-2008, 06:05 PM
#39
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Maybe my "confusion" is that I've also heard this referred to as a "Zero" emissions vehicle and I don't see how that can be if you've got a gasoline engine on board (whatever the gas engine is used for).
12-11-2008, 06:45 PM
#40
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That would then require a net profit of $10,000 per vehicle in order to pay off the initial engineering investment of $750M, and doesn't yet start to cover the bill for tooling and capital.
Unless GM performs a miracle and bumps the production numbers up - way up - this thing is going to be a financial sinkhole for years to come.
12-11-2008, 06:57 PM
#41
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Where did you hear that?...
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 12-11-2008 at 07:00 PM.
12-11-2008, 07:17 PM
#42
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I understand that (now) but it still seems a misconception to call it an all-electric vehicle when you need a gasoline-powered engine/generator on board to charge the batteries.
I can understand that you are getting more mileage out of the gasoline burned than in a traditional ICE powertrain but "all electric" still seems a miss-characterization to me.
Maybe my "confusion" is that I've also heard this referred to as a "Zero" emissions vehicle and I don't see how that can be if you've got a gasoline engine on board (whatever the gas engine is used for).
I can understand that you are getting more mileage out of the gasoline burned than in a traditional ICE powertrain but "all electric" still seems a miss-characterization to me.
Maybe my "confusion" is that I've also heard this referred to as a "Zero" emissions vehicle and I don't see how that can be if you've got a gasoline engine on board (whatever the gas engine is used for).
12-11-2008, 08:45 PM
#43
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I hadn't done the math, but I guess we can only assume that GM expects to ramp up production significantly within that time frame.
12-12-2008, 01:55 AM
#44
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Good luck to them. It won't be easy to go from 10K units in the first couple of years to something "significantly" larger (100K units per year?) a few years later without a huge amount of investment. The time required to obtain tooling and capital would be the largest obstacle.
12-12-2008, 02:23 AM
#45
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Good luck to them. It won't be easy to go from 10K units in the first couple of years to something "significantly" larger (100K units per year?) a few years later without a huge amount of investment. The time required to obtain tooling and capital would be the largest obstacle.