GM Says Volt Has Cost $750M to Develop
12-10-2008, 10:38 PM
#17
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
It's a hell of a lot of money when you don't have it.
Don't forget either; they aren't done spending on it yet.
And I wonder how much if any of the costs so far includes the tooling/line modifications necessary to actually build the vehicle?
Don't forget either; they aren't done spending on it yet.
And I wonder how much if any of the costs so far includes the tooling/line modifications necessary to actually build the vehicle?
12-10-2008, 10:41 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: CNY
Posts: 2,224
We'll have to see when it'a all done.
If it comes in at 1-1.5 billion dollars, then that seems to be about right for a ground-up new car.
And that number would actually be good for all the ground breaking technology packed into that car.
If it comes in at 1-1.5 billion dollars, then that seems to be about right for a ground-up new car.
And that number would actually be good for all the ground breaking technology packed into that car.
12-10-2008, 11:10 PM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 940
12-10-2008, 11:11 PM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 279
That coupled with your statement about the volts range maxed at 40miles makes me think you should do some more research before casting your opinion.
Know any other cars running around with lithium ion batteries?
750million to develop a "hybrid" seems crazy to you? Know of any other hybrids rated at 100mpg?
KNow of any other major car companies planning on selling a car that gets near that mileage?
Im pretty sure some of the foreign companies originally stated that what gm is doing using couldnt be done...
Know any other cars running around with lithium ion batteries?
750million to develop a "hybrid" seems crazy to you? Know of any other hybrids rated at 100mpg?
KNow of any other major car companies planning on selling a car that gets near that mileage?
Im pretty sure some of the foreign companies originally stated that what gm is doing using couldnt be done...
12-10-2008, 11:14 PM
#23
Lounge Moderator
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Mi Scusi!
Posts: 360
I think what Robert may be getting at is that some of this research for the Volt had to have at least been pioneered when putting together the EV1. It's not like GM had absolutely zero experience/data in the arena.
12-10-2008, 11:32 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southern Indiana
Posts: 940
The EV1 isn't the same type of car. Practically nothing from the EV1 even relates to the VOLT.
12-11-2008, 12:20 AM
#25
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
No need for people to get their panties in a wad...I asked what technology because I wanted to know (and for the record, "electric" cars are not exactly all that new...one of the first automobiles every made was an electric).
Moving on, yes (for whoever asked) there are several major automakers who have plans for an electric within the next 2-3 model years (no...I'm not going to go look them all up at 12:30AM).
Speaking of the batteries; everything I've read about the batteries is that they are precisely the week spot of the electric car concept (not specific to the Volt)...limited range...heavy...potentially dangerous and very expensive to buy and to replace.
Moving on, yes (for whoever asked) there are several major automakers who have plans for an electric within the next 2-3 model years (no...I'm not going to go look them all up at 12:30AM).
Speaking of the batteries; everything I've read about the batteries is that they are precisely the week spot of the electric car concept (not specific to the Volt)...limited range...heavy...potentially dangerous and very expensive to buy and to replace.
12-11-2008, 02:02 AM
#26
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Michigan's left coast
Posts: 2,405
Not to be too cynical, but the reason that GM hasn't spent much on the Volt is because they push the development costs onto the suppliers. How much "free" work do you think was received on the pack from LG and A123?
Also, the costs so far don't include tooling or capital for mass-production. That'll get very pricey.
And don't expect the next generation of development to get much cheaper. There is a huge amount of work to be done before this stuff is "ready for prime time" (mass production with millions of units per year). Every single subsystem of the vehicle needs to be re-thought for use in this architecture; you can be damn sure that several major problems will be receiving band-aids for the Volt and will need real solutions as the ER-EV applications proliferate.
This isn't intended to be harsh criticism of the work that's been done to date, but let's not get ahead of reality.
That's not true. Simply understanding the EMC and safety issues with putting high voltage into a surface transportation vehicle is a big step. I doubt that most people appreciate the challenge of controlling several hundred amps at several hundred volts in an application using components that are expected to be light, compact, and cheap.
I've heard first-hand that GM's EV1 experience was very helpful. The problem is that ten years lapsed, and most of the experienced engineers either moved on to other projects or left the company. This project would have been much easier had it come right on the heals of the EV1.
Also, the costs so far don't include tooling or capital for mass-production. That'll get very pricey.
And don't expect the next generation of development to get much cheaper. There is a huge amount of work to be done before this stuff is "ready for prime time" (mass production with millions of units per year). Every single subsystem of the vehicle needs to be re-thought for use in this architecture; you can be damn sure that several major problems will be receiving band-aids for the Volt and will need real solutions as the ER-EV applications proliferate.
This isn't intended to be harsh criticism of the work that's been done to date, but let's not get ahead of reality.
I've heard first-hand that GM's EV1 experience was very helpful. The problem is that ten years lapsed, and most of the experienced engineers either moved on to other projects or left the company. This project would have been much easier had it come right on the heals of the EV1.
12-11-2008, 05:44 AM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
It will be 2016 before the Volt can generate a return on the investment
The economy is bad and while the computer industry has been hard hit, the hardest hit of all may be the automotive industry. Executives from the largest American automakers have been begging for help from the U.S. government, despite flying down to beg for money in private jets.
In the midst of the economic turmoil, the future of alternative fuel vehicles like the Chevy Volt may be question marks in many minds. However, GM is putting the Volt at the forefront of its business plan as one of the keys to justifying loans for the U.S. government to prevent insolvency of the automotive giant.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner told a congressional committee, "We're putting a lot of money into the Chevy Volt, which we're endeavoring to get into production by 2010. It will not be at that point fully cost competitive."
GM is saying that it will take the better part of a decade for vehicles like the Volt to become profitable. The issue right now for GM is how to maintain its business until alternative fuel vehicles, like the Volt, that consume massive sums of money in research and development provide a return on the investment.
GM told congress that it has spent more than $750 million to develop the Volt with much of that amount going to battery research. GM spokesman Rob Petersen says, "The Volt is the first step in a long-term viability plan."
GM also says that expensive and research intensive projects like the Volt can lead to other technologies that can be used in other vehicle types to improve efficiency. The battery research alone can yield improvements in product categories far removed from the automotive industry such as the consumer electronics realm.
Peterson says, "We expect to reposition General Motors as a technology leader in the industry."
http://www.dailytech.com/GM+Says+Vol...ticle13643.htm
I figured it would have cost more.
The economy is bad and while the computer industry has been hard hit, the hardest hit of all may be the automotive industry. Executives from the largest American automakers have been begging for help from the U.S. government, despite flying down to beg for money in private jets.
In the midst of the economic turmoil, the future of alternative fuel vehicles like the Chevy Volt may be question marks in many minds. However, GM is putting the Volt at the forefront of its business plan as one of the keys to justifying loans for the U.S. government to prevent insolvency of the automotive giant.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner told a congressional committee, "We're putting a lot of money into the Chevy Volt, which we're endeavoring to get into production by 2010. It will not be at that point fully cost competitive."
GM is saying that it will take the better part of a decade for vehicles like the Volt to become profitable. The issue right now for GM is how to maintain its business until alternative fuel vehicles, like the Volt, that consume massive sums of money in research and development provide a return on the investment.
GM told congress that it has spent more than $750 million to develop the Volt with much of that amount going to battery research. GM spokesman Rob Petersen says, "The Volt is the first step in a long-term viability plan."
GM also says that expensive and research intensive projects like the Volt can lead to other technologies that can be used in other vehicle types to improve efficiency. The battery research alone can yield improvements in product categories far removed from the automotive industry such as the consumer electronics realm.
Peterson says, "We expect to reposition General Motors as a technology leader in the industry."
http://www.dailytech.com/GM+Says+Vol...ticle13643.htm
I figured it would have cost more.
I understand the Volt being a revolutionary vehicle. However, GM needs to get back to profitability as soon as possible. Before the financial market melted down, I felt the Volt was a white elephant. Usually, a vehicle like this needs a very healthy company to make sense. The vehicle is obviously going to be a money loser (like the Prius) for as far as the eye can see, so it's best to use it as a halo for a company that can afford the (potentially huge) losses and relatively small sales.
The only way GM can afford to market the Volt is if it is of very low production. If the thing sells in high numbers, then the money lost on each one will be magnified, and could potentially be huge.
I know what you're thinking. "What about the econmies of scale? The more you make, the cheaper it gets?" That may help some, however the cost to build is not going to become dramatically cheaper due to the limits of the ability to produce what's needed to go into it. If you mass produce Nuclear Powerplants, they still aren't going to become dirt cheap to make. Make huge quanities of money losing Chevy Volts, and you may only lose $8,000 per car instead of $12,000. But with high volume, you'll lose alot more money selling 120,000 Volts than you will selling 30,000 of them.
GM needs to focus on improving volume cars. Ford's new Fusion Hybrid gets 39 mpg, is virturally a zero emissions vehicle costs less than $28K, and will at the very least break even if not be profitable for Ford. Something Toyota hasn't been able to do with the Prius.
Don't get the idea that I'm 100% against the Volt. It's a pretty cool idea, and truly puts GM in the forefront of revolutionizing the automobile over the next decade.
However, it does no good if the company isn't around, or someone buys the company just to get that technology (ie: Honda, Toyota, or a Chinese company) from a bankrupt General Motors at a Federal Liquidation Sale. If GM spent half that money on, say, an improved Malibu Hybrid or even a hybrid electric Buick or Impala (even a RWD version), it would be money better spent and potentially more profitable IMHO.
12-11-2008, 09:20 AM
#30
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
Posts: 2,402
"Safety cushion" is the gasoline engine which possibly would not even have to turn on for your commute.