GM says goodbye to new V8s...
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 10,285
From: Albany, NY
Speaking of which - Stupid Question - Lets say GM makes a turbo V6. To help fuel economy, they castrate the tune and reduce boost. As a GMPP Dealer-Installed-Item they reflash the ECU to gve you the power that you want. As it is technically installed after the sale, that shouldnt affect CAFE right? That would be one [rediculous] way around it.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
In my experience, there really has been no quantum leap in V8 gas milage since overdrive was first introduced. Sure my much faster GTO can get the same milage as my old 85 Z28 which is nice, but i doubt it would do that much better even if it had say the little 4.8L truck engine in it.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
This is still the dumbest move GM has made in a long time.
Caddy will no longer be standard of teh world when they cant have a high tech V8 engine, while BMW, MB, Audi. Lexus, Infinity and HYUNDAI now have high tech DOHC V8's making mid to high 300hp and they are not worrying about the gas milage, or at least arent coming out publicly and show thier weekness....
Stupid move GM...very stupid.
Caddy will no longer be standard of teh world when they cant have a high tech V8 engine, while BMW, MB, Audi. Lexus, Infinity and HYUNDAI now have high tech DOHC V8's making mid to high 300hp and they are not worrying about the gas milage, or at least arent coming out publicly and show thier weekness....
Stupid move GM...very stupid.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 634
From: Deland, FL
Just to beat the dead horse on this one, i'm with Todd. I had a 1979 z28 that got ~18mpg on the highway with a 180k mile 350, A3 with the 3.42s. I had a 1985 Z28 with the computer controlled carb set-up on a ~300hp 350 that ran high 13s that would get 26mpg on the highway driving back and forth to penn state. I had a 83 grand prix with CCCS on a 130k mile 305 with an A3 that saw about 18mpg. My 92 z28 with a 305 TPI A4 with 3.23s, would only do 24-25mpg on the highway, heavier than my 85 and probably a little worse aero too. My heavy GTO with the M6 does a best of 27.5mpg if i take it really easy driving the speed limit on the highway, more like 26 or worse if i'm driving it more aggressively and cruising at 80. Yes the lighter LS1 fbodies with a slightly taller 6th gear did a little better.
In my experience, there really has been no quantum leap in V8 gas milage since overdrive was first introduced. Sure my much faster GTO can get the same milage as my old 85 Z28 which is nice, but i doubt it would do that much better even if it had say the little 4.8L truck engine in it.
In my experience, there really has been no quantum leap in V8 gas milage since overdrive was first introduced. Sure my much faster GTO can get the same milage as my old 85 Z28 which is nice, but i doubt it would do that much better even if it had say the little 4.8L truck engine in it.
I still think it can be done.
My 4 3rd gens must have been factory lemons or something because I never saw even 18mpg. I had 2 LG4 powered ones and 2 350TPI cars. But remember the pathetic horsepower ratings of that era.
Oh and if you try doing the speed limit around here it causes a 50 car pile up.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 634
From: Deland, FL
This is still the dumbest move GM has made in a long time.
Caddy will no longer be standard of teh world when they cant have a high tech V8 engine, while BMW, MB, Audi. Lexus, Infinity and HYUNDAI now have high tech DOHC V8's making mid to high 300hp and they are not worrying about the gas milage, or at least arent coming out publicly and show thier weekness....
Stupid move GM...very stupid.
Caddy will no longer be standard of teh world when they cant have a high tech V8 engine, while BMW, MB, Audi. Lexus, Infinity and HYUNDAI now have high tech DOHC V8's making mid to high 300hp and they are not worrying about the gas milage, or at least arent coming out publicly and show thier weekness....
Stupid move GM...very stupid.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Guess where these v8 cars are sold the most? The US. They have to go through the same red tape as the Big 3. Hell, the Genises will probably be built in the US.
Its funny how only a few years ago, everyone was screaming out for RWD V8 powerd sedans and how it was going to "save GM". Now gas goes to 3 bucks, and everyone starts running the other way...
Its funny how only a few years ago, everyone was screaming out for RWD V8 powerd sedans and how it was going to "save GM". Now gas goes to 3 bucks, and everyone starts running the other way...
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 634
From: Deland, FL
Guess where these v8 cars are sold the most? The US. They have to go through the same red tape as the Big 3. Hell, the Genises will probably be built in the US.
Its funny how only a few years ago, everyone was screaming out for RWD V8 powerd sedans and how it was going to "save GM". Now gas goes to 3 bucks, and everyone starts running the other way...
Its funny how only a few years ago, everyone was screaming out for RWD V8 powerd sedans and how it was going to "save GM". Now gas goes to 3 bucks, and everyone starts running the other way...
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
I agree with Charlie on this. Make the cars lighter and we can get away with smaller, more efficient engines that meet future fuel economy requirements and are better for the environment. Besides, this news doesn't mean the V8 is dead. GM has continued to improve efficiency and performance on the LSx series with each iteration. That continued development isn't going to disappear overnight.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,646
From: Portland, OR
I'm against things like CAFE for a whole myriad of reasons. But I DO see a silver lining here however. That is, it will instill a very needed dose of dicipline into carmaking.
I mean really, things have gotten out of hand here. How many sporty cars - or just cars in general - are hovering around or even surpassing 4,000 pounds. Lots. We have even developed a resident apologist fanclub for ridiculous weight. Lemme see.... oh, they're doing their best. Ummm, it costs too much to reduce weight. Ahhh, you'll never feel the difference.
And to make up for all this weight, manufacturers are forced to use big inch, blown, powerplants - which add even more weight, more cost, more complexity - and in the end, barely run faster than a 1998 LS1 Z/28.
It's gotten WAAAY out of hand, and we've gone beyond the point of diminishing returns.
Like the old street racer saying goes, "when the green light drops the bullsh!t stops". Well guess what? The green light just dropped. Believe you me, every domestic manufacturer is already figuring out how the next gen version of whatever they have, will lose 200-300 pounds. Will we typically have smaller displacement engines? Yeah, probably, but so what. Because there's a big opportunity for better things here.
Besides, me personally, I'd rather have a 400 horse, 3,400lbs ponycar than a 550 horse, 4,000lbs ponycar.
And perhaps without this radical CAFE solution, a deal which I noticed the automakers not fighting very vigorously BTW, we may never have started the process of reigning in ridiculous weight.
I mean really, things have gotten out of hand here. How many sporty cars - or just cars in general - are hovering around or even surpassing 4,000 pounds. Lots. We have even developed a resident apologist fanclub for ridiculous weight. Lemme see.... oh, they're doing their best. Ummm, it costs too much to reduce weight. Ahhh, you'll never feel the difference.
And to make up for all this weight, manufacturers are forced to use big inch, blown, powerplants - which add even more weight, more cost, more complexity - and in the end, barely run faster than a 1998 LS1 Z/28.
It's gotten WAAAY out of hand, and we've gone beyond the point of diminishing returns.
Like the old street racer saying goes, "when the green light drops the bullsh!t stops". Well guess what? The green light just dropped. Believe you me, every domestic manufacturer is already figuring out how the next gen version of whatever they have, will lose 200-300 pounds. Will we typically have smaller displacement engines? Yeah, probably, but so what. Because there's a big opportunity for better things here.
Besides, me personally, I'd rather have a 400 horse, 3,400lbs ponycar than a 550 horse, 4,000lbs ponycar.
And perhaps without this radical CAFE solution, a deal which I noticed the automakers not fighting very vigorously BTW, we may never have started the process of reigning in ridiculous weight.
I second all that.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,712
From: Ontario
Not sure how it is where you are, but up here the total tax revenue for all things car-related (gas tax, licencing fees, etc.) far exceeds what is put back into the infrastructure. The money just gets dumped into general revenue and spent on pork barrel project while our roads crumble. It'd be interesting to ask your politicians where the money from your existing gas tax is going before they hike it another 40¢.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 634
From: Deland, FL
Not sure how it is where you are, but up here the total tax revenue for all things car-related (gas tax, licencing fees, etc.) far exceeds what is put back into the infrastructure. The money just gets dumped into general revenue and spent on pork barrel project while our roads crumble. It'd be interesting to ask your politicians where the money from your existing gas tax is going before they hike it another 40¢.
Then there is scandal after scandal about the people in charge of it taking extravagant vacations, saying it is a business trip. So there you go. Tax money hard at work.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,712
From: Ontario
So I'm with Z284ever, if this helps us get lighter cars it's a good thing. We have to realize however, that there's no free lunch ... it's going to cost us to get lighter cars. Cars will get some combination of being smaller, having less content, and being more expensive. Of course that's the whole problem with this 35mpg CAFE: people think the government can snap its fingers and nothing will change except we'll all be getting awesome mileage. Assuming we could get to 35mpg (and I highly doubt we can), people are going to pay a large price one way or another.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,154
From: All around
And if anyone wants to get a headache, here's the 2007 Energy Bill that has the CAFE nonsense wrapped into it.
http://energy.senate.gov/public/inde...ssueItem_ID=58
But have a bottle of Excedrin ready!
I notice nothing increasing/changing the CAFE fines. Does that mean that the $5.50/tenth mpg under average still holds?
That would mean if CAFE was at 35mpg over a decade from now and a Camaro averaged 25mpg, you'd have a $550 CAFE fine for every Camaro. Averaging 15mpg is an $1100 fine.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
I mean really, things have gotten out of hand here. How many sporty cars - or just cars in general - are hovering around or even surpassing 4,000 pounds. Lots. We have even developed a resident apologist fanclub for ridiculous weight. Lemme see.... oh, they're doing their best. Ummm, it costs too much to reduce weight. Ahhh, you'll never feel the difference.
Yeah, maybe CAFE does force GM to re-think how they would do, say, a certain pony car (basing it not on a big sedan but on a from-scratch, smaller platform designed this way from the start). But I can still see CAFE virtually killing the full-size RWD sedan market. You aren't going to build a car the size of a G8 or LX with all the necessary features and options at 3400 pounds. Unless you'd prefer your G8 GXP with a turbo 6?
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Not sure how it is where you are, but up here the total tax revenue for all things car-related (gas tax, licencing fees, etc.) far exceeds what is put back into the infrastructure. The money just gets dumped into general revenue and spent on pork barrel project while our roads crumble. It'd be interesting to ask your politicians where the money from your existing gas tax is going before they hike it another 40¢.
Also, those "pork barrel" projects are nearly all transportation-oriented (mainly mass transit), so it indirectly benefits drivers.