That's why Bob Lutz was brought aboard. But I don't think it's his fault things haven't changed structurally.

He has greased the skids for the Cobalt to be as good as it is (he's responsible for getting the extra cash for the interior), cut though the excuses to get the GTO here, and kept the Solstice alive long enough to see daylight (it would have surely died otherwise).

Ford is run by a consensus of department heads with Bill Ford as an influence, while it seems that GM is run by multiple commitees where Bob Lutz or CEO Wagoner are reduced to trouble shooters to get good ideas from rank and file a fighting chance.

GM simply can't tear down fifedoms inside itself, or "stroke of the pen" cut approval processes. GM hired Ross Perot in the early 80s and virturally went bankrupt in the early 90s, and it still couldn't change.

It's just the way it's put together, unfortunately.

 

so it has to go through all those people if we were to ever get a 5th gen?
what if Lutz put some guys working on it without the committees knowing it? is that possible at all?

 

Unfortunately, that's a perpetual problem at GM. When you have 60+ models on the market at any given time, there's always going to be a whole bunch of them at the end of their lifecycles dragging things down. It gets back to the old problem of too many divisions and too many models, and GM doesn't have the ability to keep them all relevant.

To me the minivans are the epitome of this situation, and since they're brand new, they can't be blamed on the "old GM". GM actually had a pretty competitive van when it debuted in 1997. But they let it stagnate, while the Japanese kept pushing and improving their offerings every 4-5 years. Now, 8 years later, GM finally releases new models and they're barely warmed over versions of their predecessors! They are so far behind their competition that there's no way they'll sell without putting thousands of dollars on their hoods. GM's excuse: we'd rather put the money into other programs. Oddly enough, they had enough money to develop & market versions for 4 divisions, which only exacerbates the problem of model proliferation.

GM needs to realize that it isn't the king anymore. They can't afford to offer a car in every single possible market. Maybe take a page from GE's book: if you can't be first or second in a sector, get out of it. Why waste money and resources with these half-*** attempts? Save the $600M or so it cost to 'freshen' the minivans and put that money into a product that they can build to be best-in-class. I'd sooner see fewer, better models than trying to please every possible niche with ever more variations of their pablum.

 

Yeah, and what if those people were ninjas!

 

Of interest to note, Mustang sales were up 12% overall, but retail sales of Mustang were up 50%. So, that is a real good showing for retail sales, and emphasizes Fords lower fleet sales strategy.

The 500/Montego sold 6300 units for November. This is a pretty good showing for the first full month with very limited inventory on the ground. Especially when you figure Ford only has sales for these cars estimated at 100,000 units per year.

F-series sales were up again in November.

What pulled down Ford sales were the Focus (down 40% for November). This can also be partially accounted for by lower fleet sales.

I read an interesting interview with Bill Ford. He has said that he is more than happy to let Hertz (owned by Ford) buy a ton of cars from Chevrolet, even if it means losing the yearly sales crown (who cares) and market share. He would rather do that than dilute the resale of the new products by flooding the market with off-rental units. He also said that he would expect the new products to start to have much more impact by summer. He told the interviewer that this is when Ford expects to start to see their market share nudge back up. He also reminded the interview that FMC is very pleased with the results of the new products thus far, as there are no rebates on them. This is the strategy that Ford intends to take for the long term.

Of interest, GM truck sales are not keeping up with F-series sales. YTD, Ford is about 44,000 units ahead of GMC/Chevrolet. Also of interest, Silverado sales are down for the year, and Sierra sales are up. I guess people still are not real happy with the looks of the Silverado.

Just an observation.

 

No doubt at all in my mind. In Canada, Sierra actually outsells Silverado. Pontiacs also tend to sell disproportionately better up here, with some models outselling their Chevrolet counterparts. I think that in the US, Chevrolet has such a huge marketing juggernaut that they are able to sell better than they should.

 

I just don't understand why some people don't like the looks of the new Silverado's They're the most aggressive looking on the market with the Ram at a close second IMHO. The F-150 still looks as plain as always....maybe thats why they sell in obscene #'s I guess?

 

Lutz wouldn't do that (as a vice chairman). Suspect he wouldn't get involved unless there's organizational obsticles, or else he'd encourage someone else to do it (form a "under-the-radar" group).

Forming a skunkworks for a Camaro would be from someone a little lower on the food chain.

 

I know I wouldn't buy a silverado unless they do something about the grill/headlights. I dissagree with it being the most aggressive on the market. I see it as more goofy than aggressive. But I didn't like it at all when the new body style came out in 99 to begin with. I like the 99-01's now, but I still can't bring myself to enjoy the newer ones.

 

Oh man, that is the funniest thing I have read in a WHILE.

On a more somber note, everything I read on every forum I post and lurk on seems to point to the same thing: Even if GM does bring back a Camaro, it won't sell and will be axed yet again due to poor sales/bad marketing. GM has to hit a home run with the Camaro launch...anything less won't capture enough of Mustang's market share to keep it going.

 

You really should wake up, GM has rebates on nearly every car and truck out there, including 05's. The CTS, the Malibu, the GP, the new LaCrosse, the new G6, yep, all have friggin rebates on them!

Here let me quote you from something in september so you dont start saying gm just started this....

"General Motors Corp., coming off a third straight month of declining sales, added $500 to $1,000 in cash incentives on most 2005 model year vehicles Wednesday, as the world's largest automaker tries to spark a late-year rally.

GM's cash rebates on most 2005 models now range between $500 and $3,500, spokeswoman Deborah Silverman said. That includes $1,500 on most full-size pickups and sport utility vehicles.

Financing a vehicle through the company's finance arm, General Motors Acceptance Corp., can get the customer another $500 to $1,500 in "bonus cash." The amount varies by region.

The new deals are good through Sept. 30.

"The program is not dramatically different from last month," Silverman said.

GM still is offering cash rebates of $5,000 on most 2004 trucks and sport utility vehicles and $4,000 on most cars."

There ya go bud.

 

I think GM made a mistake here. A Mustang competitor with the potential for 100,000 units should have been brought to market before a niche market 20,000 unit Miata competitor.

One thing GM needs to remember-build what the customer wants (especially in the affordable price range) and be flexible enough to do it quickly. The Nomad might be a good example. I think Ford and Chrysler might be caught off guard if it was produced. It could be a segment buster, but GM continues on with the hhr instead.

 

could that person be THE FATHER?

 

Forget about the interior. The suspension setup on the Cobalt was cribbed from the soon-to-die 4th generation Golf/Jetta - car that weren't all-time great handlers. Even VW is turning away from torsion beams, so the 5th generation Golf/Jetta has a multilink rear-end.

It's no wonder that Opel wants nothing to do with the Cobalt/Ion's Delta platform. Does anyone else see shades of J-car here?

...where it flopped for plenty of good reasons.

Let's hope that the final product is "fully engineered." The C&D report on the Solstice "mules" made me wonder whether the finished Solstice could seat a fullsized human being...or if the top would be half-way easy to use...or more weatherproof than a 40-year old Triumph....or if the Solstice would even have a trunk worthy of the name.