GM RWD bits and pieces. All facts. No speculation.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 420
From: Pasadena,CA,USA
Originally posted by Z284ever
Did you get the impression that it had the same proportions as the current Mustang?
Did you get the impression that it had the same proportions as the current Mustang?
The exterior dimensions were similar but the concept sat lower (probably lowered 1" or so) and was wider. The concept made the Mustang look like an upright box. The windshield was raked much more aggresively and it made the car look mean. Like I said before I liked everything about it except the grille ( it just didn't flow with the rest of the car). The last photochop I posted was pretty close to what I saw.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by luis nunez
well, if the GTO will be as fast as the LS1 F boby ( maybe a bit faster) why would GM create a new Camaro slower than the 4th gen
well, if the GTO will be as fast as the LS1 F boby ( maybe a bit faster) why would GM create a new Camaro slower than the 4th gen
GTO is getting a version of the LS6 in 2005, and by 2007 when the next version comes out, it should be quicker still. Even if the next Camaro was slower than the GTO (still just speculating in all this), it would still be quicker than the 4th gen's LS1 if it also sees upgrades in performance. Especially if this hypothetical car were a little lighter than the 4th gen (a very far reach, admittedly).
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
The fact that Camaro must remain below the performance level of the Corvette is a well known...eventhough unspoken policy at GM. I wonder if the GTO will put another performance glass ceiling obstacle in for Camaro performance?
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 420
From: Pasadena,CA,USA
Originally posted by Z284ever
The fact that Camaro must remain below the performance level of the Corvette is a well known...eventhough unspoken policy at GM. I wonder if the GTO will put another performance glass ceiling obstacle in for Camaro performance?
The fact that Camaro must remain below the performance level of the Corvette is a well known...eventhough unspoken policy at GM. I wonder if the GTO will put another performance glass ceiling obstacle in for Camaro performance?
was the vette. The GTO does not have the "history" or aura that the Corvette has. Establishing a new "GTO rule" will be a hard sell given that it was never GMs Top Dog. Besides the next Camaro will still be competing against the Mustang. Given the Cobra's 390HP rating we can expect the next top dog Camaro to at least match this rating. The GTO is going after a different market which is flooded with other sports-sedans. It doesn't need Corvette like performance or 390HP.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 39
From: Asheboro, NC
Hmmmmmmm
I think the next Camaro should be a bit shorter and less heavy than the 1993-02s. For those complaining about driving a heavy GTO variant, unless you have a no-power options (or even better a hardtop) Z28 or Formula, you're driving a fairly heavy car now.
If GM can make a car that is low-slung, aerodynamic, wide-trac, etc. off the GTO chassis, I have no problem with it. If they can't - I don't like the idea too much. Like some of these guys have said I don't want a GTO with Camaro badges on it.
I think the 99+ Mustang GTs look like matchbox toy racers with the hood and side scoops and bulging fenders, but evidently it works. I guess most folks don't pay attention the rooflines family car shape and height.
I'll say this; Te other day, I parked next to a 2003 Mach I Mustang at a gas station. It looked good, I think. But when I came out and noticed my Z setting next to it - I had no doubt which one looked racier in my mind. I'm biased I know, but I think the next Camaro should keep that look in mind. - just a bit shorter.
If GM can make a car that is low-slung, aerodynamic, wide-trac, etc. off the GTO chassis, I have no problem with it. If they can't - I don't like the idea too much. Like some of these guys have said I don't want a GTO with Camaro badges on it.
I think the 99+ Mustang GTs look like matchbox toy racers with the hood and side scoops and bulging fenders, but evidently it works. I guess most folks don't pay attention the rooflines family car shape and height.
I'll say this; Te other day, I parked next to a 2003 Mach I Mustang at a gas station. It looked good, I think. But when I came out and noticed my Z setting next to it - I had no doubt which one looked racier in my mind. I'm biased I know, but I think the next Camaro should keep that look in mind. - just a bit shorter.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: Hmmmmmmm
Originally posted by dd11856
I think the 99+ Mustang GTs look like matchbox toy racers with the hood and side scoops and bulging fenders, but evidently it works. I guess most folks don't pay attention the rooflines family car shape and height.
I'll say this; Te other day, I parked next to a 2003 Mach I Mustang at a gas station. It looked good, I think. But when I came out and noticed my Z setting next to it - I had no doubt which one looked racier in my mind. I'm biased I know, but I think the next Camaro should keep that look in mind. - just a bit shorter.
I think the 99+ Mustang GTs look like matchbox toy racers with the hood and side scoops and bulging fenders, but evidently it works. I guess most folks don't pay attention the rooflines family car shape and height.
I'll say this; Te other day, I parked next to a 2003 Mach I Mustang at a gas station. It looked good, I think. But when I came out and noticed my Z setting next to it - I had no doubt which one looked racier in my mind. I'm biased I know, but I think the next Camaro should keep that look in mind. - just a bit shorter.
That obnoxious hoodscoop makes the car.... and I actually like it.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Latest development:
GM global car lineup turns to rear drive
Lutz says automaker to use Insignia concept as model for more rear-wheel drive vehicles
By Ed Garsten / The Detroit News (Wednesday, November 5, 2003)
SANTA BARBARA, Calif -- General Motors Corp. plans to introduce a new rear-wheel drive vehicle platform that will spawn a new generation of cars and crossover vehicles produced in North and South America, Europe and Asia.
After moving away from rear-wheel drive cars starting in the 1970s to reduce weight and boost fuel economy, GM and other automakers are racing to reintroduce rear-wheel drive as a way to enhance performance, attract enthusiasts and boost owner loyalty.
Advances in technology -- such as traction control, anti-lock brakes and electronic stability control -- are allowing automakers to rediscover rear-wheel drive and overcome prior drawbacks, such as sloppy handling on ice and snow and mediocre fuel economy.
DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group is also planning a new series of large rear-wheel drive sedans and wagons that will go on sale next year.
GM's new rear-wheel drive platform -- the basic underpinning of a vehicle that often includes the frame, chassis, suspension and engine -- will be one of three the automaker will use to create vehicles that can be customized for virtually any market in the world, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview Tuesday.
"We'll see a real convergence in our passenger cars and crossovers and car-based utilities -- giving them a more global flavor," Lutz said. "Once the architecture is situated everywhere, any member of that family of vehicles could be built anywhere."
GM hopes to accelerate its product development efforts and lower costs by producing more unique models for individual markets, while sharing more parts and components around the world.
The new rear-wheel drive platform will most likely be based on the Insignia, a concept car GM's Germany-based Opel unit introduced at last month's Frankfurt Auto Show. It could be used as the basis for a number of vehicles, including future versions of the Pontiac GTO, which is being reintroduced to the U.S. marketplace next month, Lutz said.
With the demise of the Pontiac Firebird and Chevrolet Camaro, Cadillac is now the only GM division that currently sells a rear wheel drive car in North America -- the CTS sedan.
The 2004 Pontiac GTO is now based on a coupe built by GM's Australian unit, Holden Motors.
Due in dealerships next month, GM is limited to building 18,000 GTOs a year, in part because of sensitivity to the United Auto Workers union. GM also hopes to create demand for the GTO by curtailing volume.
But once the new rear-wheel platform is put into place in "several years," Lutz said the car could be built in North America by union workers in somewhat larger volumes.
As part of a new product strategy at GM, several regions of the world have been designated product "homerooms" that will take the lead in developing particular types of vehicles with collaboration from other arms of the automaker, Lutz said.
GM's regional operations that have a vested interest in a vehicle type or are more advanced in their development, would be assigned as the homeroom.
The upcoming Chevrolet Equinox small sport-utility vehicle, for example, has been largely developed by GM's Asian operations, though it will be built in Canada and equipped with a Chinese-built engine.
"We're going to pummel the marketplace with derivatives of current vehicles," said Jim Queen, GM vice president of North America engineering.
The "homeroom" approach started to take shape over the last 18 months and is a linchpin in GM chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner's so-called "one GM" strategy, said Lutz.
"It encourages GM to operate as one global company as opposed to a federation of regional companies pursuing their own thing," Lutz said.
Indeed, the GTO, developed on three continents[/color], is the first manifestation of that strategy, according to Lutz.
Holden altered a GM European vehicle platform to create the Monaro coupe, upon which the GTO was ultimately based, with direction from GM's North American operations.
Lutz said GM is not interested in building so-called "world cars" that could be sold anywhere, but rather "global cars" that could be tweaked to match the needs and preferences of virtually any market in the world.
"It will make us better and faster," Lutz said.
Lutz says automaker to use Insignia concept as model for more rear-wheel drive vehicles
By Ed Garsten / The Detroit News (Wednesday, November 5, 2003)
SANTA BARBARA, Calif -- General Motors Corp. plans to introduce a new rear-wheel drive vehicle platform that will spawn a new generation of cars and crossover vehicles produced in North and South America, Europe and Asia.
After moving away from rear-wheel drive cars starting in the 1970s to reduce weight and boost fuel economy, GM and other automakers are racing to reintroduce rear-wheel drive as a way to enhance performance, attract enthusiasts and boost owner loyalty.
Advances in technology -- such as traction control, anti-lock brakes and electronic stability control -- are allowing automakers to rediscover rear-wheel drive and overcome prior drawbacks, such as sloppy handling on ice and snow and mediocre fuel economy.
DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group is also planning a new series of large rear-wheel drive sedans and wagons that will go on sale next year.
GM's new rear-wheel drive platform -- the basic underpinning of a vehicle that often includes the frame, chassis, suspension and engine -- will be one of three the automaker will use to create vehicles that can be customized for virtually any market in the world, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said in an interview Tuesday.
"We'll see a real convergence in our passenger cars and crossovers and car-based utilities -- giving them a more global flavor," Lutz said. "Once the architecture is situated everywhere, any member of that family of vehicles could be built anywhere."
GM hopes to accelerate its product development efforts and lower costs by producing more unique models for individual markets, while sharing more parts and components around the world.
The new rear-wheel drive platform will most likely be based on the Insignia, a concept car GM's Germany-based Opel unit introduced at last month's Frankfurt Auto Show. It could be used as the basis for a number of vehicles, including future versions of the Pontiac GTO, which is being reintroduced to the U.S. marketplace next month, Lutz said.
With the demise of the Pontiac Firebird and Chevrolet Camaro, Cadillac is now the only GM division that currently sells a rear wheel drive car in North America -- the CTS sedan.
The 2004 Pontiac GTO is now based on a coupe built by GM's Australian unit, Holden Motors.
Due in dealerships next month, GM is limited to building 18,000 GTOs a year, in part because of sensitivity to the United Auto Workers union. GM also hopes to create demand for the GTO by curtailing volume.
But once the new rear-wheel platform is put into place in "several years," Lutz said the car could be built in North America by union workers in somewhat larger volumes.
As part of a new product strategy at GM, several regions of the world have been designated product "homerooms" that will take the lead in developing particular types of vehicles with collaboration from other arms of the automaker, Lutz said.
GM's regional operations that have a vested interest in a vehicle type or are more advanced in their development, would be assigned as the homeroom.
The upcoming Chevrolet Equinox small sport-utility vehicle, for example, has been largely developed by GM's Asian operations, though it will be built in Canada and equipped with a Chinese-built engine.
"We're going to pummel the marketplace with derivatives of current vehicles," said Jim Queen, GM vice president of North America engineering.
The "homeroom" approach started to take shape over the last 18 months and is a linchpin in GM chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner's so-called "one GM" strategy, said Lutz.
"It encourages GM to operate as one global company as opposed to a federation of regional companies pursuing their own thing," Lutz said.
Indeed, the GTO, developed on three continents[/color], is the first manifestation of that strategy, according to Lutz.
Holden altered a GM European vehicle platform to create the Monaro coupe, upon which the GTO was ultimately based, with direction from GM's North American operations.
Lutz said GM is not interested in building so-called "world cars" that could be sold anywhere, but rather "global cars" that could be tweaked to match the needs and preferences of virtually any market in the world.
"It will make us better and faster," Lutz said.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 358
From: AU
i'll just tack this onto here.
Interesting Article
www.theadvertiser.com.au
Holden revs up for a Monaro invasion
By MIKE DUFFY
08nov03
HOLDEN'S $1 billion-a-year coup to ship 18,000 Pontiac GTO-badged Monaro coupes to the US is only the start of a massive global export plan being hatched by General Motors.
The Detroit-based car giant last night revealed a strategy to sell up to 100,000 South Australian-made Commodore utilities in the US each year, and to export the vehicle throughout South-East Asia.
GM's group vice-president in charge of advanced vehicle development, Mark T. Hogan, said negotiations were under way with the powerful Union of Automotive Workers to increase the agreed annual allocation of Monaros to the US and to ship in the utility.
To meet such export demand, Holden's plant at Elizabeth would need to expand weekend shifts and hire hundreds of additional workers. A second assembly line is being considered to carry the extra production.
Mr Hogan declared the Pontiac GTO "a definite smash hit" at its official launch here yesterday, even before the first shipment of 450 re-badged Monaros docks in the US after the voyage from Outer Harbor.
US motoring critics have lavished praise on the GTO after test-driving the car in the Californian mountains.
Pontiac already holds 1100 deposit-paid orders for the vehicle, which marks the return of a legendary American muscle car.
More than 500,000 of the original US-built GTO were sold between 1964 and 1974 and the car and its name have become synonymous with the popular culture of the time.
Today's GTO, featuring a 253kW, 5.7-litre V8 engine, goes on sale on December 1 for $45,993.
"We have a great deal of confidence in the car. It's a great vehicle," Mr Hogan said. "Clearly, it will be a definite smash hit of 2004.
"We have 2800 Pontiac dealers holding orders for the GTO and the car is every bit as good as promised it would be.
"If we could get unlimited supply, I would say we could sell a minimum of 40,000, and possibly as many as 80,000 units.
"Enthusiasts who remember with reverence the great GTO of the past will love the new car and so will a new generation of performance car enthusiasts.
"Holden has done a fantastic job engineering Monaro and, in conjunction with Pontiac engineers, creating the GTO.
"Our Australian arm is viewed globally as a major force in the automotive world. All that is a real credit to the people of Adelaide and we are very proud of the job Holden has done."
Mr Hogan said he had visited Holden in Australia two weeks ago and had been shown the next generation Commodore ute.
"It's simply stunning. I am very keen to bring that vehicle to the United States," he said.
The ute, like the Monaro, would resurrect another US car icon, the Chevrolet El Camino, which has been out of production for 20 years.
GM believes it could sell up to 100,000 El Camino utes in the US each year.
Interesting Article
www.theadvertiser.com.au
Holden revs up for a Monaro invasion
By MIKE DUFFY
08nov03
HOLDEN'S $1 billion-a-year coup to ship 18,000 Pontiac GTO-badged Monaro coupes to the US is only the start of a massive global export plan being hatched by General Motors.
The Detroit-based car giant last night revealed a strategy to sell up to 100,000 South Australian-made Commodore utilities in the US each year, and to export the vehicle throughout South-East Asia.
GM's group vice-president in charge of advanced vehicle development, Mark T. Hogan, said negotiations were under way with the powerful Union of Automotive Workers to increase the agreed annual allocation of Monaros to the US and to ship in the utility.
To meet such export demand, Holden's plant at Elizabeth would need to expand weekend shifts and hire hundreds of additional workers. A second assembly line is being considered to carry the extra production.
Mr Hogan declared the Pontiac GTO "a definite smash hit" at its official launch here yesterday, even before the first shipment of 450 re-badged Monaros docks in the US after the voyage from Outer Harbor.
US motoring critics have lavished praise on the GTO after test-driving the car in the Californian mountains.
Pontiac already holds 1100 deposit-paid orders for the vehicle, which marks the return of a legendary American muscle car.
More than 500,000 of the original US-built GTO were sold between 1964 and 1974 and the car and its name have become synonymous with the popular culture of the time.
Today's GTO, featuring a 253kW, 5.7-litre V8 engine, goes on sale on December 1 for $45,993.
"We have a great deal of confidence in the car. It's a great vehicle," Mr Hogan said. "Clearly, it will be a definite smash hit of 2004.
"We have 2800 Pontiac dealers holding orders for the GTO and the car is every bit as good as promised it would be.
"If we could get unlimited supply, I would say we could sell a minimum of 40,000, and possibly as many as 80,000 units.
"Enthusiasts who remember with reverence the great GTO of the past will love the new car and so will a new generation of performance car enthusiasts.
"Holden has done a fantastic job engineering Monaro and, in conjunction with Pontiac engineers, creating the GTO.
"Our Australian arm is viewed globally as a major force in the automotive world. All that is a real credit to the people of Adelaide and we are very proud of the job Holden has done."
Mr Hogan said he had visited Holden in Australia two weeks ago and had been shown the next generation Commodore ute.
"It's simply stunning. I am very keen to bring that vehicle to the United States," he said.
The ute, like the Monaro, would resurrect another US car icon, the Chevrolet El Camino, which has been out of production for 20 years.
GM believes it could sell up to 100,000 El Camino utes in the US each year.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Finally!! 
My next new car pecking order (what I'm actually looking at buying next year or year after next) has changed:
1. GTO
2. El Camino
3. the next Mustang Mach 1
4. Solstice supercharged coupe
My next new car pecking order (what I'm actually looking at buying next year or year after next) has changed:
1. GTO
2. El Camino
3. the next Mustang Mach 1
4. Solstice supercharged coupe
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 269
From: Metairie La.
From Ude-lose:
"Lutz said GM is not interested in building so-called "world cars" that could be sold anywhere, but rather "global cars" that could be tweaked to match the needs and preferences of virtually any market in the world"
I find this interesting along with the "rapid fire" thread. In other threads over the past months, the Sigma and VE architectures have been discussed. One of the advantages of these new architectures was the ability to put different components, i.e coilovers in one car, macpherson struts in another. I think that this is what lutz means by tweaking.
I said it once and I'll say it again, I believe that the next GTO and camaro will be sister cars, like the camaro and firebird were before. The key is the next monaro (or replacement). Isn't it supposed to debut in 2006-2007, just about the time of the rumored return of the camaro. That car is the key to everything.
"Lutz said GM is not interested in building so-called "world cars" that could be sold anywhere, but rather "global cars" that could be tweaked to match the needs and preferences of virtually any market in the world"
I find this interesting along with the "rapid fire" thread. In other threads over the past months, the Sigma and VE architectures have been discussed. One of the advantages of these new architectures was the ability to put different components, i.e coilovers in one car, macpherson struts in another. I think that this is what lutz means by tweaking.
I said it once and I'll say it again, I believe that the next GTO and camaro will be sister cars, like the camaro and firebird were before. The key is the next monaro (or replacement). Isn't it supposed to debut in 2006-2007, just about the time of the rumored return of the camaro. That car is the key to everything.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 269
From: Metairie La.
The Monaro/Commodore platform is aging, so it is my belief that Holden has had to been working on a replacement platform. The VE chassis.
From GuionM's original post:
"3. Camaro was never actually "in trouble", it simply needed a chassis to be placed on. The 5th gen chassis was picked before the Solstice became a serious production likelihood."
I know that it is his own "educated speculation", but I think he knows more than he's letting on
To me, the Solstice is an interesting player in all of this. Do we know for sure what chassis the Solstice will be built on? Is it the VE?
What i'm adding to GuionM's speculation, the Holden/Gm platform sharing idea has been going on for longer than believed. The next Camaro/GTO will not debut until the current Monaro/Commodores lifespan is up.
From GuionM's original post:
"3. Camaro was never actually "in trouble", it simply needed a chassis to be placed on. The 5th gen chassis was picked before the Solstice became a serious production likelihood."
I know that it is his own "educated speculation", but I think he knows more than he's letting on
To me, the Solstice is an interesting player in all of this. Do we know for sure what chassis the Solstice will be built on? Is it the VE?
What i'm adding to GuionM's speculation, the Holden/Gm platform sharing idea has been going on for longer than believed. The next Camaro/GTO will not debut until the current Monaro/Commodores lifespan is up.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Originally posted by Jackass
The Monaro/Commodore platform is aging, so it is my belief that Holden has had to been working on a replacement platform. The VE chassis.
From GuionM's original post:
"3. Camaro was never actually "in trouble", it simply needed a chassis to be placed on. The 5th gen chassis was picked before the Solstice became a serious production likelihood."
I know that it is his own "educated speculation", but I think he knows more than he's letting on
To me, the Solstice is an interesting player in all of this. Do we know for sure what chassis the Solstice will be built on? Is it the VE?
What i'm adding to GuionM's speculation, the Holden/Gm platform sharing idea has been going on for longer than believed. The next Camaro/GTO will not debut until the current Monaro/Commodores lifespan is up.
The Monaro/Commodore platform is aging, so it is my belief that Holden has had to been working on a replacement platform. The VE chassis.
From GuionM's original post:
"3. Camaro was never actually "in trouble", it simply needed a chassis to be placed on. The 5th gen chassis was picked before the Solstice became a serious production likelihood."
I know that it is his own "educated speculation", but I think he knows more than he's letting on
To me, the Solstice is an interesting player in all of this. Do we know for sure what chassis the Solstice will be built on? Is it the VE?
What i'm adding to GuionM's speculation, the Holden/Gm platform sharing idea has been going on for longer than believed. The next Camaro/GTO will not debut until the current Monaro/Commodores lifespan is up.
Good points BTW.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by stars1010
I may be wrong but I thought the Solstice was being built on a new RWD platform called Kappa.
Good points BTW.
I may be wrong but I thought the Solstice was being built on a new RWD platform called Kappa.
Good points BTW.
Remember Kurt Ritter's (I believe) slip-up: "Waiting for the right car" to base the next Camaro on?
Solstice, on the other hand was put together only as a concept to signal Bob Lutz's arrival at GM. However, the thing became so popular, that the challenge went down to bring it to production, and strangely, it's going to make it to production before the "right Camaro chassis" does.
Solstice's chassis will infact be called "Kappa". However, GM is standardizing it's RWD vehicle components. I'm guessing Solstice will have the same or very simular suspension and chassis pieces as the F5 & "Sigma mass" cars since there is only one GM "world chassis" under development.
The 1967 Camaro was such a rush job, that it came out before the 1968 Nova the car was based on. Perhaps Solstice is in the same situation.
