Yeah, its like how did people get around in that before FWD?!

 

Not really...

From what I am hearing the new Camaro will be based on the GTO's VE derived platform. That will give it much more interior space than the 4th Gen and probaly as much interior space as the Monte Carlo. Infact Generally speaking they would be in the same size class and direct competitors. The only difference would be the Monte being FWD, which to your average driver don;t amount to a hill of beans.

If the red car is an indicator the Cobalt will have a Coupe version covering the sub $20K area. Then you will have a Camaro covering the $20K-$35K area followed by the C6 which will have the $40K+ area covered. Sounds like the perfect coupe lineup


In reference to another post-

Whats neat about the sub-$20K Commodores is that they come with a supercharged 3800 Series II

 

FWD not amounting to a hill of beans? Come now, you're joking....right??

Tell that to the 20+ customers I've talked to about the GTO who had a coronary because they wanted to replace their GP coupe with a GTO, but will not because of price, but also the RWD nature of the car. I discovered many of these people had actually owned F bods in the '80s and early '90s, (I find it shocking how many current GP owners owned third and fourth gens!) and thats where they get their perception of RWD from. The most sophisticated traction systems will not get them to see the light...these people would need to test drive one in a snowstorm to believe it...and I can't way I blame them. Also, I HOPE the Camaro is not as big as a Monte inside. I mean, my Grand Am isn't anywhere near that big, and its decent size inside. Does this mean we're gonna get a big Camaro, or one who's interior efficiency is so astounding, we've never seen anything like it? Thats what this proposition sounds like...

As for the comment being made if people knew how to drive, RWD would not matter...indeed, this is somewhat true. People drove nothing but RWD for years and years. But consider this...I put studded snows on my old '89 Camaro, and it was every bit as good as my mom's FWD '98 GP GT she used to have, with normal tires. But I put regular snows on my '02 Grand Am, and what happened? I got through snowstorms this past winter where the only things on the road were me, SUVs and snowplows...in terms of all-out capability, its hard to beat FWD in inclement weather...

Except AWD

 

RWD with traction control is as good as FWD in the snow IMO. The new Camaro will be about the current GTO's size which makes VERY similar in size to the Monte Carlo.

Also the decision to kill the Grand Prix coupe was made 2-3 years ago before the GTO was even a dirty thought in Bob Lutz's head. From what I understand it was not a great seller and neither is the current Monte Carlo (was outsold by the Corvette in April. Last thing GM need IMO is a FWD midsized Coupe..especially if it is competing in the same market as a GTO sized Camaro.

Also of note, RWD seems to be popular in the midsized coupe market, for several years the MN-12 T-bird out sold both W-body Lumina followed by Monte Carlo.

 

But most people will refuse to believe that, and when they drive a RWD car in the snow, and the TC kicks on... they will think the car is bad in the snow... even if the TC helps them get going.

It's just want most people believe. Heck, they've been told that for 20 years by the car makers!

About the only things Monte Carlo and Camaro share is the fact that they are 2-doors. Even if MC goes RWD, it doesn't put (or it SHOULDN'T put) them in the same class.

 

most FWD cars are a 60/40 weight distro. It's all about weight over the drive wheels, Most modern RWD cars are now 50/50, that plus traction control will make them have no problem handling a few inches of snow.

The problem I see in the winter around upstate NY is that people think they can drive on snowy/icy roads at the same speed the drive normally, if you need to drive 55mph+ in the snow then you better buy something with treads.

 

If the Impala is going rwd, I can't see how a fwd Monte will hang around, and I'd see a rwd version redundant if there is going to be a Camaro. Of course they are different cars with different characteristics and personalities, but I think a coupe-conscious GM would avoid that scenario. And I still think a Sebring-esque Bel Air would fit in nicer if there is to be another 2-door in the lineup.

I also would think there would be backlash to the notion Solstice would become the next Firebird. Just look how much resistance there was to lack of hoodscoops on the GTO. Now apply the lack of a V8 and ram air on a Firebird. Plus I think the name "Solstice" itself has enough recognition and appeal at this stage. I think a better performing awd Grand Am/G6 and a supercharged Solstice also put more strikes against the likelihood of a new Firebird, but these are just my own opinions. There just doesn't seem to be enough room for one between Solstice, G6, and GTO.

 

Amen...to everything you said.

1) MC is a luxury car with a sporty appeal...a Camaro is a no-holds-barred muscle car. BIG difference...

2) It doesn't matter if we as a group believe RWD with TC is as good as FWD...we are a relatively small minority of the buying public. If the general public believes RWD is going to be a pain in the ****, then what the hell does it matter what we think?? Trust me, in the northeast at least, WE ARE A MINORITY. My own father, who has owned everything from a '69 Camaro to a '79 Chevette to an '02 Formula will NOT replace my mom's GP with a GTO because its RWD, and she needs something that will be good in snow. The only way I will be able to get him into one is wait until we have 6+ inches of snow, and before we start plowing the lot invite him down for a romp in it...otherwise, people like him and many others who drove RWD before FWD was the in thing will not go for it.

I am all for the move to RWD...I just think GM needs to keep FWD offerings available in the mid-upper levels as well. Or, use RWD platforms and make AWD available...that'll solve the problem right there

 

I will make it simple......

If you were a business and you had these options, what would you choose?

1. Keep the Monte Carlo the same untill 07, at that point replace it with a GTO size Camaro projected to sell 100,000 units a year.

2. Keep the Monte Carlo the same till 2005 (as currently planned), then redesign it keeping FWD. At the same time you are spending funds to redesign a Camaro also which is alreadys slated to be GTO sized. Now you have two midsized 2-door cars sitting next to each other in the dealer....You sell 40,000 MC's and 70,000 Camaros. You just spent a crapload of money to design two car and only gained 30,000 in sales. Like I said the MC was outsold by the Vette in April which shows how dead the personal luxury coupe market is.

Keep in mind the new Camaro will not be like 4th Gen at all. It will be more like the GTO which is a fairly spacious inside. I think after driving a 300HP Camaro or a 240 HP MC that are that similar the decision will be easy.


I also remember every one talking a few years ago about how they hated the Monet Carlo SS because it wasn't true to its heritage and a slow FWD car. Now you are saying you wanna keep it FWD?

 

btw, any speculation as to a next-gen GTO convertible??

 

I think the Corvette comparision is unfair. It's the first time that has happened, and it is simply because Corvette had all the incentives on it at that time, while it normally does not. MC held it's incentives at what they have been for literally over a year.

Add to that the fact that April is spring-fever time, and people start thinking about driving a nice car (Corvette-type) for the summer, and you had a nice sales boom for Corvette... good marketing, IMO.


My personal view on Monte Carlo vs. Camaro is that weather MC is RWD or FWD, it doesn't matter... Camaro should not be made into a Chevrolet GTO. That is not what Camaro is or should be. If that is what comes out, it should wear the Monte Carlo name or even the Chevelle name.

Monte Carlo and Camaro should be two distinct car with two seperate markets regardless if they both are 2-door and/or RWD ...

 

About the Monte Carlo, I'm not saying it will be discontinued or killed off, so it's a little early to create a riot over it. Here's the background as I understand it:

The "W" based cars will continue after the so-called VE chassis comes out. The "W" won't be replaced till after 2007. The W and VE will be made at different factories.

The VE will be considered Full-Sized cars. Look at the Bonneville & Park Avenue, and compare them to the Grand Prix Regal, or even the Impala. It's the Bonneville & Park Avenue class of car that's going RWD (with Chevrolet having a piece of this as well), not the Regal, Grand Prix, and apparently not the Impala either (though it's possible Chevy may play a name switching game with the FWD mid-lux & RWD VE). Hope that put's it into perspective.

Any "W" that's discontinued (read: Monte Carlo) isn't going to be discontinued because the VE is replacing it, it would be discontinued because of it's sales in the marketplace. If a RWD coupe replaces Monte Carlo (and isn't called Monte Carlo) it's because of sales not because GM want's to ignore a market segment.

Next year, the Regal will end up on mid-lux & by all indications, Impala is still scheduled for mid-lux as well for 2006. That's where Monte Carlo's future is up in the air. It's a question of if GM still want's to make a FWD coupe or there's a market for it.

This is just my opinion, but to say that there isn't a market for both a FWD Monte Carlo, and a RWD performance car is pretty narrowsighted, and I think alot of the comments here bear it out. Not every coupe buyer want's a rip-snorting fast car or RWD. If you look at Monte Carlo's demographics and the demographics of say a Mustang or Camaro, it's like night & day. By this logic, the Monte Carlo should be dead and the Camaro should be around, which isn't the case.

Again, it's just my opinion, and I'm doing alot of speculating here, but I feel the MC will continue as a Impala (or whatever it's called) derivitive after 2005. It's GM's only coupe of that size (it's at least 12" longer than the GTO) now that the GP coupe is history, and it really doesn't seem to take alot of effort to make it.

So, let's see how things pan over the next 12 months, then decide if we're going to riot or not. Chevrolet is very likely to have alot of stuff to look at!

 

If I were a GM beancounter...it would make perfect fiscal sense to combine the Camaro and MonteCarlo into one "GTO sized" platform.

I could save lots of money if consumers would only buy my new car in large quantities. These consumers would of course need to forget about their personal preference for FWD or RWD. The converted Camaro shoppers would need to accept that Camaro is now a large/mid-sized two door sedan. If consumers have some resistance to combining the Camaro/Monte Carlo segment....we can just add HUGE incentives.

WRONG!!!

A FWD larger Monte Carlo and a smaller, sportier RWD Camaro..I believe, has better market penetration and coverage than combining them into one car.

If Camaro becomes a mid sized two door sedan.....I WILL NOT BUY!

 

But it will be about the same size a first Gen...

 

On the same token, alot of Monte Carlo buyers wouldn't consider a Mustang sized GTO. GM at the moment has the only 5 passenger FWD coupe that can actually fit 5 people and their luggage, so my guess (and I've been wrong before ) is that it would continue.

It's not so much the beancounters that are the bad guys, since they simply crunch numbers. In reverse order, it's the "board", then the product chief, division head, and the people in marketing who do the research and actually put the case together, & the marketplace and potential buyers.

If the demographics are dfferent enough, and there are enough people to buy it, and the research supports the idea enough to put together a business plan, it clears marketing, it gets a thumbs up from the product chief, and it clears the Product Planning Board, then it's going to hit the streets.