GM to Kill Pontiac Monday?
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From: TX Med Ctr
People keep throwing out the China argument. Might be what GM is thinking, but it is wrong.
Ah well. There will still be companies that make sporty and visually appealing cars. They are all German or Japanese though, guess I will have to learn to like buying 'foreign'.
Ah well. There will still be companies that make sporty and visually appealing cars. They are all German or Japanese though, guess I will have to learn to like buying 'foreign'.
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From: New England
heck there is a Edge I saw out there that almost had the SVT look to it..and not to forget the Mustang
Last edited by Caps94ZODG; Apr 26, 2009 at 10:54 AM.
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Does it strike anyone as odd as to why GM would stand up a impromptu press release on Friday, shooting down the speculation of the supposed Monday's impending Pontiac death announcement? If the speculation is true why even release a statement at all? What benefit does denying it on Friday and and then confirming it on Monday serve?
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Does it strike anyone as odd as to why GM would stand up a impromptu press release on Friday, shooting down the speculation of the supposed Monday's impending Pontiac death announcement? If the speculation is true why even release a statement at all? What benefit does denying it on Friday and and then confirming it on Monday serve?
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From: Commerce, mi, USA
Does it strike anyone as odd as to why GM would stand up a impromptu press release on Friday, shooting down the speculation of the supposed Monday's impending Pontiac death announcement? If the speculation is true why even release a statement at all? What benefit does denying it on Friday and and then confirming it on Monday serve?
At least one automotive analyst agrees with me...
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...o+dump+Pontiac
Pontiacs have had a role in popular culture. A Pontiac convertible was used by Lucy and Ricky in episodes of "I Love Lucy" in a drive across the country. Pontiac Firebird Trans Ams were featured in the 1977 film "Smokey and the Bandit."
Those muscle car models are a key part of Pontiac's legacy.
"That was the high-water mark," said Jim Hall of 2953 Analytics in Birmingham. "They were overstated for the market but found some resonance from buyers who wanted cars like that."
He discounted any notion that Pontiac would permanently disappear and said it could emerge once the market rebounds as a niche brand of one or two models.
"Killing Pontiac is probably the wrong word," Hall said. "Putting it to sleep is probably far more accurate. Don't count Pontiac out forever, but it's definitely going fallow for a while. You'll see something from Pontiac in the future providing you see something from General Motors in the future."
Those muscle car models are a key part of Pontiac's legacy.
"That was the high-water mark," said Jim Hall of 2953 Analytics in Birmingham. "They were overstated for the market but found some resonance from buyers who wanted cars like that."
He discounted any notion that Pontiac would permanently disappear and said it could emerge once the market rebounds as a niche brand of one or two models.
"Killing Pontiac is probably the wrong word," Hall said. "Putting it to sleep is probably far more accurate. Don't count Pontiac out forever, but it's definitely going fallow for a while. You'll see something from Pontiac in the future providing you see something from General Motors in the future."
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From: Chicagoland IL
That would be preferable to me, if GM were to announce that Pontiac is going to "sleep" for awhile, rather than just being killed.
Of course, if it ever came back, it'd have to be as a relevant, profitable, product or line.
And that's the tough part. Because frankly, taking direction from the loudest remaining "Pontiac Enthusiasts" is a dead end. If it weren't, the GTO and G8 would have saved Pontiac. Let's face it, the current enthusiast community - as we know them now - cannot support Pontiac.
If one day Pontiac is to return, it will have to be remade by people of vision and focus. And maybe that will mean creating a whole new enthusiast base and leaving the old one behind.
Of course, if it ever came back, it'd have to be as a relevant, profitable, product or line.
And that's the tough part. Because frankly, taking direction from the loudest remaining "Pontiac Enthusiasts" is a dead end. If it weren't, the GTO and G8 would have saved Pontiac. Let's face it, the current enthusiast community - as we know them now - cannot support Pontiac.
If one day Pontiac is to return, it will have to be remade by people of vision and focus. And maybe that will mean creating a whole new enthusiast base and leaving the old one behind.
Last edited by Z284ever; Apr 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM.
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G8, Solstice and a coupe.
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That would be preferable to me, if GM were to announce that Pontiac is going to "sleep" for awhile, rather than just being killed.
Of course, if it ever came back, it'd have to be as a relevant, profitable, product or line.
And that's the tough part. Because frankly, taking direction from the loudest remaining "Pontiac Enthusiasts" is a dead end. If it weren't, the GTO and G8 would have saved Pontiac. Let's face it, the current enthusiast community - as we know them now - cannot support Pontiac.
If one day Pontiac is to return, it will have to be remade by people of vision and focus. And maybe that will mean creating a whole new enthusiast base and leaving the old one behind.
Of course, if it ever came back, it'd have to be as a relevant, profitable, product or line.
And that's the tough part. Because frankly, taking direction from the loudest remaining "Pontiac Enthusiasts" is a dead end. If it weren't, the GTO and G8 would have saved Pontiac. Let's face it, the current enthusiast community - as we know them now - cannot support Pontiac.
If one day Pontiac is to return, it will have to be remade by people of vision and focus. And maybe that will mean creating a whole new enthusiast base and leaving the old one behind.
If for no other reason than the simple fact that regardless of how popular the GTO and G8 could have been, Holden could only build a comparatively small number no matter the demand.
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From: TX Med Ctr
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Yeah, I know it's not what you guys want to hear...
And G8's sales have increased because dealers are dealing and GM added $3 grand on it's hood, don't you think Josh? Even with that, you certainly can't call the G8 a goldmine for Pontiac. It was a similar story with the GTO. There is a lesson in there somewhere. The lesson to me is that Pontiac performance cars have a very sensitive price point to those who currently consider them. Even more so than Ford, Dodge or Chevy.
Bob, your not saying that restricted production volume has had anything to do with how popular the G8 and GTO are? I know that you know, it took Pontiac 5 model years to sell 3 model years of GTO's and Holden has made twice as many G8's as Pontiac has been able to sell in the past year.
I don't want you guys to misunderstand me. If I were in the market for a new daily driver TODAY, the G8 would be at the top of my list. But what we consider traditional Pontiac enthusiasts will simply not support the brand adequately. Sure, you guys, (and others on this site) bought NEW Pontiacs and supported the brand, but far more are just big talkers who won't cough up the cash when Pontiac delivers what they've been asking for. You can't run a brand that way - as we've seen demonstrated.
And G8's sales have increased because dealers are dealing and GM added $3 grand on it's hood, don't you think Josh? Even with that, you certainly can't call the G8 a goldmine for Pontiac. It was a similar story with the GTO. There is a lesson in there somewhere. The lesson to me is that Pontiac performance cars have a very sensitive price point to those who currently consider them. Even more so than Ford, Dodge or Chevy.
Bob, your not saying that restricted production volume has had anything to do with how popular the G8 and GTO are? I know that you know, it took Pontiac 5 model years to sell 3 model years of GTO's and Holden has made twice as many G8's as Pontiac has been able to sell in the past year.
I don't want you guys to misunderstand me. If I were in the market for a new daily driver TODAY, the G8 would be at the top of my list. But what we consider traditional Pontiac enthusiasts will simply not support the brand adequately. Sure, you guys, (and others on this site) bought NEW Pontiacs and supported the brand, but far more are just big talkers who won't cough up the cash when Pontiac delivers what they've been asking for. You can't run a brand that way - as we've seen demonstrated.
Last edited by Z284ever; Apr 26, 2009 at 04:05 PM.
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Yeah, I know it's not what you guys want to hear...
And G8's sales have increased because dealers are dealing and GM added $3 grand on it's hood, don't you think Josh? Even with that, you certainly can't call the G8 a goldmine for Pontiac. It was a similar story with the GTO. There is a lesson in there somewhere. The lesson to me is that Pontiac performance cars have a very sensitive price point to those who currently consider them. Even more so than Ford, Dodge or Chevy.
Bob, your not saying that restricted production volume has had anything to do with how popular the G8 and GTO are? I know that you know, it took Pontiac 5 model years to sell 3 model years of GTO's and Holden has made twice as many G8's as Pontiac has been able to sell in the past year.
I don't want you guys to misunderstand me. If I were in the market for a new daily driver TODAY, the G8 would be at the top of my list. But what we consider traditional Pontiac enthusiasts will simply not support the brand adequately. Sure, you guys, (and others on this site) bought NEW Pontiacs and supported the brand, but far more are just big talkers who won't cough up the cash when Pontiac delivers what they've been asking for. You can't run a brand that way - as we've seen demonstrated.
And G8's sales have increased because dealers are dealing and GM added $3 grand on it's hood, don't you think Josh? Even with that, you certainly can't call the G8 a goldmine for Pontiac. It was a similar story with the GTO. There is a lesson in there somewhere. The lesson to me is that Pontiac performance cars have a very sensitive price point to those who currently consider them. Even more so than Ford, Dodge or Chevy.
Bob, your not saying that restricted production volume has had anything to do with how popular the G8 and GTO are? I know that you know, it took Pontiac 5 model years to sell 3 model years of GTO's and Holden has made twice as many G8's as Pontiac has been able to sell in the past year.
I don't want you guys to misunderstand me. If I were in the market for a new daily driver TODAY, the G8 would be at the top of my list. But what we consider traditional Pontiac enthusiasts will simply not support the brand adequately. Sure, you guys, (and others on this site) bought NEW Pontiacs and supported the brand, but far more are just big talkers who won't cough up the cash when Pontiac delivers what they've been asking for. You can't run a brand that way - as we've seen demonstrated.
My point is that I believe that you drew the wrong conclusions in your earlier post. No, the GTO and the G8 could not "save" the old volume version of Pontiac, but they sure as hell could underpin a new performance niche version. Those two cars, along with the Solstice, are a strong foundation for such a brand to grow from. GM's inconsitency and ouright reversals of the plans for Pontiac are the root cause of the current results.
I'd wager that a great many individuals on this site and others could develop a far more coherent plan than GM at this point.
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The problem with any muscle niche business plan for Pontiac is "Chevy can sell these cars just as well and with lower overhead."
And to counter that you would need marketing data, cost projections, factory overhead, and a whole bunch of other hard numbers that nobody on a forum has available. And you would still need to convince GM's bankers to agree to it when they would rather just part-out GM for cash.
Also I think it was concluded that the GTO did not sell to "Pontiac enthusiasts". Lutz pointed out the car sold poorly in Firebird towns and ended up with a high import conversion percentage. I suspect the same thing is true of the G8. The buyers aren't Pontiac guys randomly walking into the dealership, people have heard about the car and are seeking it out.
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Oh yeah, it's so easy to spend other people's billions by typing out forum posts.
The problem with any muscle niche business plan for Pontiac is "Chevy can sell these cars just as well and with lower overhead."
And to counter that you would need marketing data, cost projections, factory overhead, and a whole bunch of other hard numbers that nobody on a forum has available. And you would still need to convince GM's bankers to agree to it when they would rather just part-out GM for cash.
Also I think it was concluded that the GTO did not sell to "Pontiac enthusiasts". Lutz pointed out the car sold poorly in Firebird towns and ended up with a high import conversion percentage. I suspect the same thing is true of the G8. The buyers aren't Pontiac guys randomly walking into the dealership, people have heard about the car and are seeking it out.
The problem with any muscle niche business plan for Pontiac is "Chevy can sell these cars just as well and with lower overhead."
And to counter that you would need marketing data, cost projections, factory overhead, and a whole bunch of other hard numbers that nobody on a forum has available. And you would still need to convince GM's bankers to agree to it when they would rather just part-out GM for cash.
Also I think it was concluded that the GTO did not sell to "Pontiac enthusiasts". Lutz pointed out the car sold poorly in Firebird towns and ended up with a high import conversion percentage. I suspect the same thing is true of the G8. The buyers aren't Pontiac guys randomly walking into the dealership, people have heard about the car and are seeking it out.
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From: Chicagoland IL
No arguments there. And it was a failure of imagination and leadership, not a shortage of hardware.
Imagine if John DeLorean were around and Rick Wagoner told him, " John, we're going to give you the best W-car ever, you'll have access to the Holden Monaro and Commodore to do with as you please, we'll create a new 2 seater sportscar architecture for you to use and you'll get exclusive use of a coupe and convertible version of Epsilon, you'll also get a manual trans version - again, exclusively. Now, go make a Pontiac Division out of that"
How do you think DeLorean would do?