I read other posts of yours when you's said the same thing or something similar. What cash and breaks for imports are you talking about???

 

He's referring to the tax incentives that Toyota and Nissan particularly have been given to build plants in the south. Of course, tax incentives have also benefited GM - I believe both the Oshawa complex and the now-demolished St. Therese plant (home of the 4th Gen F-Body) were built and continued operating in Canada off the back of tax breaks.

 

But their shares saw one of their steepest declines in a long time after the announcement. Obviously shareholder confidence is even worse now because of this. What makes you think the government is going to be able to find somebody better? Nothing is going to change. GM needs to go into bankruptcy either way.

 

And Honda, Mercedes, BMW. Senator Shelby is currently one of the biggest problems in this area. Hundreds of millions of dollars of write-off for companies to open plants (or even keep them open when company comes saying "give us money or these jobs go bye-bye and we'll build a new plant two states over who will give us a FAT check... wheres your check??").

 

Exactly - therefore, Wagoner's firing/resignation and GM's stock price plunge really doesn't matter does it? I agree that GM is headed toward bankruptcy (this 60-day extension is just time for the government to get the details lined up, not for GM to produce a significantly better plan and continue on with federal help IMO). Wagoner saw the road the feds were headed down and wanted no part of it.

 

I hate it as well. But when you start down that road, it's nearly impossible to double-back. What politician wants to be known as the guy who lost the jobs, regardless of what saving the jobs entails?

 

Why else would the gov't be saying that the warrantees are safe if they weren't getting ready for bankruptcy?
That’s all I was saying in the previous posts....sure the gov't is keeping them alive for now...but it appears they are just delaying the inevitable. So does that mean we get our billions back? What scares me is the Gov't has its hands in it now. Its only going to get uglier and uglier. Buy your SUV's and gas guzzlers now while you can :-).

Colin

 

That’s why I was wondering.

His posts seem to be talking about the federal government, senators and representatives, etc. and most and maybe all of the tax brakes, abatements and all the other incentives have come thorough state and local community governments; not the federal government.

I know that’s how it happened in Marysville when Honda moved into Ohio; all the incentives came from the city, county and the state and I’m pretty sure that’s how it has worked for other plants.

Senator Shelby or any of the rest of them really doesn't have any input into it. Actualy, I don't believe that the federal government has the power to do anything about it either way.

 

What you guys fail to realize is that there's a huge difference between the state of South Carolina giving BMW a break on their South Carolina tax return if they bring jobs to South Carolina...and the federal government taking cash from every person in the U.S. and transferring it to an insolvent company in Detroit. A company that hasn't paid any taxes in years, by the way. Huge difference.

In fact, I don't care what South Carolina does, because I don't live there.

 

I keep hearing that GM would not exist without the bailout money. This is simply not the case. They would have had to file chapter 11 reorganiztion and gone through a lengthy process. Granted their chances of coming out are probably not that good, but
this is an option and should have been the option to begin with. This is how capitalism
works. We don't need the dam gov't swooping in and trying to save the day. It never
works.

 

finally somebody else get it...detroit south thrives while detroit north tanks...yes detroit north is in deep water and should be just closed from operation...there cars suck and there trucks are so-so....fact is detroit north product is abysmal compared to detroit south

 

I almost agree with you. GM would have never been able to secure the debtor in possession financing that a reorganization requires with the credit markets in the shape they are in. The government should have backed a chapter 11reorganization effort in October. The public perception is that GM is bankrupt. Whatever negative effects GM would feel because they are in reorganization are being felt already.

 

I think your views are too narrow focused.

Think about the skill force that GM (Ford, Chrysler, suppliers etc...) has provided, about all the college degrees attained as a result of the automakers' domestic presence, the taxes that auto companies, their suppliers and their employees pay, the healthcare payment contributions, the pensions, the products that have driven the national interests, the affordability and reach of their products as opposed to the narrow market in which BMW operates. GM is providing opportunities where BMW is not in many cases.

Are you not basically saying, "I don't care if GM doesn't come out of Ch11 because the rest of the world will supply our cars." Yes that may be true but your job might one day go to Asia/Africa as well. If not yours, maybe your kids'. And if Detroit fails, how do you think your country might manage the tax shortfall in the short term? The cost of failure is indeed greater than the cost of having to rebuild. There is no question about that.

There's a bigger picture than just 'cars' and 'cost burdens' here. GM has set its foundations in many countries. Their collapse is being felt across the globe. Although many governments are supportive of their auto industries, I don't see how/why America should be out of step with the rest of the world.

 

No, I completely agree with what you're saying. Having GM's entire operation is far more valuable to the entire country than BMW's one manufacturing operation. And engineering jobs are far more beneficial to the national economy than assembly jobs. I understand that. That's why I would rather buy a GM car than a BMW car. And I'd rather see GM survive over BMW every day of the week.

The only thing I'm saying is that you can't compare a SC tax break to a federal cash giveaway. It's apples and oranges. The has nothing to do with the other. Anybody who thinks they're comparable needs to realize that GM hasn't paid taxes in years...they've already had their tax break.

And I'm against giving straight taxpayer cash to any company, any time. That's unacceptable in my mind.

 

Detroit is insolvent right now but it can and will be fixed. Toyota reported an operating loss for the year too. When you talk about an industry the size of the North American auto industry, there's a VERY FINE line between making billions in profit and losing billions.

You'd be surprised how much of a difference it would make if ALL stakeholders made significant cuts to their wages, benefits etc. For example, the concessions gievn to GM by the Canadian Auto Workers will save GM a Billion dollars per year and from my point of view, we gave up very little. Now imagine if there was an actual pay cut instead of a wage freeze to everyone from dealership employees, skilled trades, engineers, pensioners......you get the point.

GM spends more in R&D in the US than all other automakers combined and creates way more spinoff jobs which creates huge tax revenue for the government. Keeping GM alive costs the US taxpayer less than not intervening.

What difference does it make if a the state of South Carolina gives money to BMW or congress gives money to Detroit? The concept is the same. It's taxpayers money that is handed out. The difference is that GM creates more jobs and actually NEEDS the money where as BMW is doing most of their R&D in Germany and doesn't need the financial help so WTF?!