Caps94ZODG

I mean there trying to "rice" out the and Cavy.body kits and superchargers and wings.....but wasnt Camaro's original intent based on what the Cavy is now?? affordable basic youth oriented fun transportation?? with a few HP goodies..nothing that makes it the pounding Muscle car Camaro was but still..thats the market its in..
Why not have the Camaro be what it was..instead of middle class affordable and out of the reach of the young buying public..
I mean basically in the food chain of 2 door cars for Chevy..the Cavy is first.. Monte Carlo is after that for base price per what you can buy...then it was the Camaro till "02..then the Vette..how did the Camaro become second down from Vette? shouldnt it be 2nd from the Cav.?..the image of the Camaro has gotten it "outpriced" to something that is unatainable..and seen as a vette with a back seat..with almost the price to match..not saying back in the day that SS and Z28's were not pricey..but basic fun cars with good HP and a V8 could be had over the stock V6..basically sometingthe size of a compact..or a little bigger..(remember pony cars back then were considered small cars) on a new RWD platform...from somewhere..who knows..but have it pull from all of GM's parts bins...all this and the engine is in place already..and trans..and the parts..just need the body..Modify the Solstice coupe a little?? use the CTS frame sigma....something to get the ball rollin...retool it into a smaller and more affordable car...thats what it was and should be marketed as..if they market this one
would it be bad to offer a V8 with 275 HP again for a introductory version of the Camaro one step up from the base model?..go from cheep 15K car to any figure you want...add the features to it to get the car you desire..just should be marketed as the Cavy is ....and if it means cheep fit and finish..for the entry level..ohh well..most of the buyers of the Camaro and Firebird bought it for the all out HP..not the creature comforts..IMO

JEDCamino

Why not give the Cavalier a V8?

WERM

The Camaro was never the cheapest car in chevy's lineup. It was not so much "affordable" performance as "attainable" performance.

That said, the 4th Gen WAS too expensive (much was due to the SS models which drove the percieved price up so much that many didn't bother).

BigDarknFast

Please. The 4gen LS1 Z28 remains even today the best performance bargain in the world IMHO. Don't want a SS or WS6? Simple - don't BUY one. The base Z28 has essentially the same performance, in fact exactly the same with just a lid, muffler and some 17" rims from the bountiful aftermarket for these cars. These cars aren't priced for teenagers and they are not targeted at them. For just about anyone with a middle class job, the Z28 is an amazing amount of raw performance for their car-buying $$.

kizz

I noticed that from 1982 to 2002, the price of a well-optioned F-body has doubled, literally! Well optioned 1982 T/A approximately $15K. Well optioned 2002 T/A approximately $30K plus! I totally dismiss the argument that this can be excused away by inflation alone. Inflation is part of it, but things just don't double by themselves in 20 years. Many other car lines had a much lower rise in cost over the same period, and they weren't even the alleged "affordable" car like the F-body was (long ago anyway). Something just happened along the way and affordability became a lower priority. I'd like to know what that something is. From 1997 to 1998 alone, the price jumped around $3500 for F-bodys with the mid-generation refresh. That's just not right, when we're willing to settle for "under $30K" now..

guionM

I don't really see any point in continuing the Cavalier coupe.

This is just my opinion, but I feel Cavalier coupes are as much to blame for Camaro's poor sales as GM financially starving Camaro development, and Camaro's ungainly size.

Camaro was never the cheapest car in Chevy's lineup, and it was never marketed to kids, regardless as to what a few here wish to believe. But, it traditionally was a car marketed to younger people just starting out in their careers, and those approaching middle age (the true buyers of those high performance models).

Cavalier coupe is aimed at the exact same market as the Saturn Ion coupe. "Kids", first time car buyers, people on a budget, and value hunters. Cavalier is simply a repetition in GM's lineup. But a Mustang sized Camaro, which would represent a return to it's roots, could (as Mustang has) bring in the same type of customers it originally did, while increasing sales dramatically.

Camaro has traditionally been right behind Corvette in performance, it doesn't have to look like one. If there are people here who are into performance cars that can't tell the market difference between a GTO and a F-body, I think that there's more than a passing chance that there are people who look at a gen 4 Z28 or SS, look at the Corvette parked 5 feet away, and are likely more confused than they would if the Camaro was a muscular coupe. Especially if it was Chevrolet's catch-all entry level-to-performance level coupe.

Let Saturn have the economy coupe market.

BigDarknFast

kizz - gee it's not like anything CHANGED in the cars from 1982-2002... couldn't be the LS1 engine, the dual airbags, ABS, TCS, RAP, keyless entry, dentproof panels, stiffer chassis or anything like that now could it? Fact is, these cars are a LOT more feature-packed and capable than the ones from 1982. And yes inflation DOES play a big part in it.

guionM

A Mustang GT in 1982 started well under $9,000! Care to check the price percentage increase on a 2002 Mustang GT?

(I remember because I checked and was intent on buying one before I went into the military)

Caps94ZODG

well I never said it was the cheapest car..just outpriced from what its intention...before an aspiring person that wanted something that was fast fun to drive and look good..got a Camaro.. an RS had a 305 in it..the IROC or Z28 was the top of the line in the 80's and could be had for relative middle income young persons income..as stated before these cars went "upscale" and only the people that basically could get a vette almost...there was no middle ground..they got rid of the RS V8 model and something that people can afford on a budget..and thats where the GT came in..remember the Mustang GTS...was the LX of the SN-95 platform..fast and cheep..was thousands less than a stripped Z28 of the same year..ohh well..just saying it wasnt the cheepest but deffinatly shouldnt be 2nd to top on the car list for cost...

kizz

There are always exceptions to the rule, and the Mustang may be one of them in this case, being the cobweb tin can that it was in 82 and the vastly more refined car it is now. The f-body has had major mechanical improvements as well, but it was no tin can in 82; it was highly refined, albeit made with shoddy materials. And as you noticed, I'm talking about well-optioned, not base prices. the 82 T/A started at $9658, with the Firebird being considerably cheaper, and a Z28, not a base camaro but a Z28 starting under $9K. But that 9K (and the 'Stang's $9K) is irrelevant when talking about well-optioned cars which I was here. A well optioned 82 Mustang is well into the 5 figures like any F-body of the time. Also I never said the F-body was the only car to skyrocket, but it did so more than most other car lines, sportscar or not.

On a slightly different tangent now: When was the last time you saw a modern action TV show wrecking cars on a regular basis, I'm talking every single episode, multiple cars? Including every-gen F-body or stang, any other musclecar, any granny car, any kind of make/model you can think of? Nope, don't even go there, those kinds of shows haven't been done for 15 years or more. Yes, again there may be less than a handful of exceptions (if any!) but I think you get the point I'm trying to make. Back then cars were dirt cheap and financially disposable, as far as entertainment. Not so today. The way they often do it now is to remove the engine first and strip the car down to a bare minimum before the stunt, to cut their losses before an explosion scene for example. Could it be that today, relative to the economy and to inflation, cars are just way too overpriced? That's my hunch. Now if you want to pick apart what I've said, feel free to, but I think it holds its own. cars today are overpriced, and the former f-body was at the top of the overpriced list.

WERM

Well, suppose I'm Bob "Don't know anything about cars" consumer. I walk onto the dealers lot and all I see are 30K SS Camaros (This is because all most dealers stocked in their huge assortment of a couple of F-bodies were base model coupes and loaded SS models). So I think "wow, a V8 Camaro is too expensive" and the salesman stears me towards an SUV or Monte Carlo or whatever because he can make more money and wants to sell whats on the lot. Or I go over to Ford where a nice Mustang GT stickers for 24-27k, and they have lots to choose from (since Cobra production is limited, most dealers have to stock GTs as well - and do). So I probably won't buy a Camaro because "It's too expensive".

You'll note that I said percieved cost, not actual cost. Everyone here is aware of the Z28 and its bang for the buck status. Most consumers however don't even know what a 2002 Camaro looks like.

The fact that the SS models only performed slightly better is exactly why they shouldn't have existed. It drove up the Percieved cost and in order to Justify a $3500 option that had marginal performance enhancements and little extra content, GM had to make the Z28 look plain, homely and boring. Is that a 2002 Z28 or a base model? I dunno. It was perhaps the least visually inspiring Z28 of all time.

I mean really, what were you paying for? The Z28 already had a hood, wheels and spoiler. So a hood with a scoop, some plasting ducting, 1" larger wheels and a taller spoiler are $3500 extra value? uh, no not really. Better make the Z28 look extra plain. If they offered IRS, an LS6, a heavier duty rear end (or something else really different and better) and limited production, the package may have made more sense.

Z28Wilson

Quite frankly I never saw any Chevy dealers "stocked up" with loaded Camaro SS's on their lots. The Detroit area dealers would typically have just a couple in stock to choose from and would carry more Z28's and V6's. At least around here, it's a myth that dealers pushed the SS's above everything else.

Car prices from 20 years ago? C'mon. In 1982 did you ever think you'd be paying over $30,000 for a nice full size pickup truck or even see SUV's priced over $40,000? Inflation, technology, features, tougher safety standards, etc. etc. have probably doubled the prices on every car in the last 20 years....

Z284ever

I'm all for Camaro having affordable (or rather attainable) performance and style.....but does it really, really need to span the absolute entry level segment? Does it really need to be down there competing with KIA and Hyundai?

As others have posted here, Camaro has never been the cheapest car in the line up, nor should it be.

When you talk about the past, if you weren't willing to pay the Camaro's price of admission, you still had choices.
Nova, Vega, Monza (well optioned ones could cost as much as a Camaro), Chevette, etc.

I say, bring on the Delta platform 220hp, blown Z24! Cavalier still fills a role.

I don't care how cheap, shoddy and austere you make it....the days of a $15,000 V8 are history.

BigDarknFast

So then... the Mustang GT is the ideal car for ignorant buyers? How many performance car buyers are "don't know anything about cars" types? And I know for a fact that the SS was in short supply when I went looking, last summer. Dealers could not keep them in stock.

Your opinion. And I do agree to a certain extent about the similarity of the base and Z28 Camaros... that was why I wanted an SS. But even the base Z28 is hardly plain, homely or boring.

The package made plenty of sense, and I would have gladly paid the extra $3500 for it if I could have located one with the options I wanted. Priced 17" wheels and fiberglass hoods lately? That's a good $1200-1500 right there, even without tires. Sure an LS6 would be nice (of course they CAN BE HAD that way in the aftermarket anyway, heard of the new ZL1?)... but my plain ol' LS1 is plenty for humbling Mustang GT's!

redzed

It's funny how times changed. "Younger people" typically don't buy NEW cars anymore, and if they do, they go towards import nameplates. The "younger" buyers that do go domestic are often drawn in by generous manufacturer subsidized "first-time buyer" programs. For this market, a Cavalier, Neon or Focus wasn't a first choice, but just an easy way to get financed.

The older, performance oriented buyers never really abandonned the F-body. This market was far more credit worthy, and had alot more money for a discretionary purchase - hence the popularity of the SS package. With proper promotion and marketing, GM could have brought alot more 40+ buyers out of the woodwork. A Z28 makes a perfect second car, with enough practicality to be the everday driver of an "empty nest" family.

The fact remains that the "entry-level" new car market is the last place an F5 should be slugging it out. The "kids" buying Civic coupes are the affluent ones - and probably wouldn't step into a V6 Camaro anyway. The irony is that the people who wanted base F-bodies are the very ones who have their purchasing decisions made for them in the finance office, not the showroom. My sympathy goes out to all of people who were "slammed" into low-end domestic crap.