Not the dreaded BAR across the grille!!! it looks so out of place, i almost thought it was photochoped.

Nice looking Suv overall.

 

Yeah I am sure there are as many Turbo Probe clubs as thier are GN clubs. Half the cars you mentioned aren't even noteworthy to someone who isn;t a hard core Ford addict. XR4Ti? Talladegaas?

You wanna get like that we can mention-
Berretta GTZ
Old's Quad 442
Grand Prix GTP
Lumina Z34
Cavalier Z24
454SS
Cutlass Cierra International
Buick LaSabre Grand National (T-type)
The latest Grand AM GT's ahve a big following


The list goes on and on.


While true this is largley a judgement call, GM through it's sheer size has produced more performance oriented models than Ford in the last 30 years....at least cars that the average person knows.


I seriously think that the Focus magazine is no more than a misguided attempt to cash in on the econobox craze by Primedia.

 

I'm gonna try to keep what I think to myslef here, (because I actually agree with formula about GM/Chevy having more known and popular cars regardless of any factors) but I think that idiotic bar is gonna steal Chevy sales.

 

[I don't buy this argument. GM may have more dealers, but that is because they have more brands. Cadillac is sells the same as Lincoln but generally has stand alone dealers where Lincoln dealers are mixed in with Mercury. I think it is pretty dumb given the level of difference between your Town Car and Grandpa Marquis or Aviator and Mountaineer...but it's how Ford does it. Pontiac/GMC has thier own dealers because it would be dumb to put them in the same showrrom as Ford.

As for Chevy having 4,000 dealers....doesn't Ford have like 3,000? Either way I really don't think there is a person in America no withing a nominal drive to a Chevy or Ford dealer. Sure there are more Ford dealers, but that just means that each Ford dealer gets a larger slice of the pie. It also means it may be a little hard for someone to just run to another Ford dealer on the other side of town and cross shop. It is good if you are buying a Chevy because you have more competition. I worked over two dealers while buying my Trailblazer to get the best dealer. If anything Ford's smaller dealer network is an advantage.

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As far as quality, from the late 80s till their recall disasters of the past few years Ford was known as a top quality US car, only behind Buick (How quick we forget the rest of GM was in the basement just 5 years ago!).

While this may be true...image is everything, and right now Ford's image on building quality cars sucks. It may be unjust in some cases, but that's life. GM on the other hand has gotten nothing but positive press the last 5 years.

Even so building a quality car 10 years ago doesn't sell cars today. I really don't see this getting better at Ford, because GM has a huge head start in terms of increasing quality while cutting costs. They have been working at it since the mid 90's. Ford on the other hand just recently started it as thier money woes began and it has led to nothing but quality trouble.

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Wanna talk performance do ya? Ford went so far as to put dual exhausts on standard V6 Thunderbirds and all Crown Vics in the mid 80's!

I owned an 87 T-bird V6, a 87 Cougar V6 and my parents owned an 85 Cougar V6...all of them had single exhaust. Aside from the Turbo Coupe (which only got dual exhaust in 87-88 on 5 speed models), the only Fox Cougars/T-birds to get duals from the factory were the 88 XR-7's and Thunderbird Sport Coupes..Even then they only made 155HP because Ford put the low output 5.0 in them. And to insuate that a 112 HP V6 Thunderbird shows Ford was performance mided in the 80's is crazy.

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The only true dual exhaust system besides Mustang & Corvette in the industry at the time!

Thats because the dual exhaust 5.0 was only in the Cougar and T-bird in 88...and was pretty much the same exhaust setup as the Mustang..sans headers and 70 HP....Ford was so performance minded they put the 150 HP 5.0 in ther larger T-bird a Crown Vic...even though there was no way they would be faster than the Mustang. Least GM let the Camaro get close to the Corvette.

Quote:

High output Mustang engines went into Lincoln Mark 7s!! Turbocharged 4 cylinder T-birds outran GM's V8 coupes.

Much as I like the Turbo Coupe it was unreliable, expensive to fix, and in in the end Ford couldn't escape that it was a warmed over Pinto motor. They are fun cars though

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SHO Taurus', Mercury Marauders, Suprcharged T-birds, SVT Focus, SVT Contours, even the Lincoln Mark 8 LSC all fairly recent performance cars (seems someone already covered the 70s and part of the 80's very well .

SHO Tauus was good but overpriced..

Maruader is not a performance car.....it's slower than an Accord

The Super Coupe was a failure that got is whole development team fired the day after it was released. 215 HP is not exactly what I call performance in a 4000lb car..sounds like a base engien to me. Also Chevy countered with the Lumina Z34 and Grand Prix GTP.

Contour SVT was a great little car.

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Now, since Chevrolet alone has more dealers & development budget as Ford, yet is always in a sales race with them, lets see what Chevrolet has had over that same time (since 1970), discounting the obvious Camaro & Corvette:

Chevelle SS396
Chevelle SS454
Laguna S-3 454
Monza Spyder 5.0 V8
Monte Carlo SS
Impala SS
I'll even throw in the Monte Carlo 454 (though it was never marketed as anything than a luxury car)

I Think that about covers it?

454SS
Lumina Z34
Beretta GTU
Cavalier Z24 (150 HP was alot for an econobox at the time)

Either way the fact that Chevy offered a Camaro along side to Corvette for years whiel Ford has just the Mustang speaks volumes.

Quote:

If you want to tag team Ford (because the same size Chevrolet Motor Division comes up hella short) let's throw in Pontiac for laughs (again, omitting the f-body):

First off this argument is dumb....and I think you ar using it because Ford and Lincoln pretty much has no performance outside the Cougar. By all means lets include Lincoln and Mercury

Also not including the F-body or Corvette here is a mistake....you take the resources GM threw at one of them over the last 30 years and spread that out among other models and you would have a pretty formitable line up. Ford only ahd to support the Mustang...

Quote:

GTO: LeMans based
GTO: Ventura based (don't laugh, it was still quick for it's day)
NASCAR based Grand Prix fastback
Turbo Grand Prix
Turbo Sunbird GT
Turbo Grand Am GT
Grand Prix GTP

As you can see, even with GM's 2 largest divisions (with more resources and dealers than Ford), it still doesn't add up to what Ford has managed to do since the 70s.

That also says nothing about Don Peterson requiring all his engineers and senior management to take Bondurant's performance driving course that filtered to all new models, and many existing ones. Don't confuse what GM and Chevrolet have comming down the pipeline in the future with what Ford has already done to date.

Let's not EVEN talk about Ford not having performance models. We really don't want to go there!

You can list all you want...there is always anotther tape a stripe package to list....

GM as a whole as put out more notable performance than Ford Motor Company in the last 30 years. I am sure if GM focused all it's resoures pretty much on won brand like Ford does, Chevy would easily crush Ford...but that's not the reality. GM probaly does have too many brands, but they are at a point now where they have to support them. Everyone has whined for years that GM has too many brands..yet the same people got all depressed when the killed Old's.

Also, Ford and GM are not very far apart in terms of market share...so now I am wondering why Ford is so damn small and has such smaller financial resources??

 

Also I think what is throwing this argument is the lack of a solid definition of what a performance model really is. Like say the Maruader..it has performance intentions...but comes up short...or a Monte Carlo Z34...it is meant to be the performance version of teh MC...but is it what you call a performance car?

Either way I think name recoginition is a good indication of how sucessfula performance car is. Most of the Chevy's listed everyoen knows....You ask the average person to name a Ford performance car and you will hear Mustang followed by a blank look....and maybe someone saying ZX2.

 

I'd beg to differ. The issue with the F-150 has not been brought to light here, but it is a SERIOUS, SERIOUS issue. The ramp up for the truck is basically at half the line rate it should be.

Ford either gets this one together, and fast, or there are serious problems coming.



Buick, and I'd remove the Lincoln from that list while I'm at it.



I see GM making great strides in that area at both Buick and Cadillac. I don't see that from Ford.



Hmmm... GTO and Solstice have a reasonable chance of making my loins quiver...




If memory serves, the last redesign was the one that made it the ugliest thing on for wheels... until Aztek took that title and surrendered it to the Honda Element two years later.


I disagree. Cavaliers may not win any beauty contests, but at their price point, it's the best equipped vehicle on the road, and boasts rock-solid reliability.

Focus, on the other hand, is more expensive and gives you the pleasure of returning to the dealership often for the "Safety Recall of the Week".

I don't want passion in an appliance. I want reliability... which may be why I don't understand the ricer craze.



I call that a pretty good reason for an appliance.



Hrumph... I pummeled a Civic with a fart cannon and wing pretty good yesterday... in the Cavalier. Given the potential of the Ecotec, the joke's over.



Funny thing is, Opel Corsas and Astras are viewed as tin cans over here, and the rest of the world (including Europe) loves them enough to make them the highest selling platform world-wide.



I'd like to see some data backing up the safety claim. Every survey I have ever seen showing deaths/million drive miles puts a REALLY BIG domestic sedan at the top of the list.



Impala was up 50% lately if I remember correctly.

 

This thread has definitely shown how some people only have rose-colored glasses on.

Forget all the models, engines, options, and other crap for just one second and think about this ONE ISSUE...

If Ford only made trashy POS junkpiles that can do nothing right (as some of you seem to think), then why are they the most popular brand sold today?
Why would so many people buy their stuff? Why would they have the highest repeat-buyer percentage in the industry - even better than Honda?

You know, you certainly don't have to like their stuff. Nobody expects you to. But you guys lose lots of credibility with me when you can do nothing but b1+ch about everything Ford does.

Taurus - "...the last redesign was the one that made it the ugliest thing on for wheels..."
Damn shame it still outsells the Chevy stuff then huh?

Lincoln - "...and I'd remove the Lincoln from that list while I'm at it..."
Removing the LS V8 from that list is hardly a smart thing to do. Remember, even Cadillac's own website offered praises of the LS's performance, handling, and quality. But again, my rose-colored glasses apparently aren't the same color...

T-bird SC - "The Super Coupe was a failure that got is whole development team fired the day after it was released."
By whose standards was it a failure?!?! My professor in Automotive Powerplants and Thermodynamics II courses traded his C4 in on a new SC while I was in his class (we were car-buddies out of class). He was thoroughly thrilled with it at the age of 47. It has been my experience that MOST if not ALL SC owners would buy another today if they were still available.

Ranger - "Ranger- I think the Colorado and Canyon will change this"
I don't know what's worse, the fact that a 20-year-old Ford mini truck is outselling everything else offered by GM, Dodge, and the imports, or the fact that you think a new offering is going to "change this". I digress.

The thread asked if I thought Ford was screwed - I answered.

At least I had the decency to respond with fact and opinion and not resort to the low mental approach of claiming "every single one of their cars are crap - always have been, always will be." How naive. How lame.

I don't recall ever saying that GM didn't offer lots of performance cars. I was just demonstrating that Ford probably made more of them than the GM-enthusiast might be aware of. Then I end up defending my claim - no big deal. But to claim that Ford has no performance other than Mustang... geez. Take that crap to the lounge or somewhere else besides in here. You'll find more folks ignorant to the facts in those places and your propaganda job will be easier to sell.

BTW - Nice roll there guionM. You spent more time providing facts and figures that I was going to bother investing in this playground argument. You also brought up some additional models and points I missed altogether in my hasty response.

 

Ford protects it's key models from internal competition. Of course they sell 400,000 Taurus's...it's the only mid sized sedan they offer. Add Malibu and Impala sales togethor and suddenly the Taurus don't look so great. Was a two door? Ford has it as long as you want a Mustang.....that is unless you can afford a T-bird. Up to last year GM had the Camaro, Corvette, and Monet Carlo in the same showroom...

Quote:

Why would so many people buy their stuff? Why would they have the highest repeat-buyer percentage in the industry - even better than Honda?

I would like to see proof on this...seems a bit off. Even if it is true, I bet most of it is in thier pickup sales...which are I will say the make good trucks.

Quote:

You know, you certainly don't have to like their stuff. Nobody expects you to. But you guys lose lots of credibility with me when you can do nothing but b1+ch about everything Ford does.

How so...people are quick to get on GM for thier mistakes?

Quote:

Taurus - "...the last redesign was the one that made it the ugliest thing on for wheels..."
Damn shame it still outsells the Chevy stuff then huh?

Last time I checked Chevy sells 500,000+ Malibus and Impalas because Chevy offers two entrys in the segment. The Taurus I am also willing to bet has a higher percentage of fleet sales than the Malibu/Impala and is sold at less profit.

Quote:

Lincoln - "...and I'd remove the Lincoln from that list while I'm at it..."
Removing the LS V8 from that list is hardly a smart thing to do. Remember, even Cadillac's own website offered praises of the LS's performance, handling, and quality. But again, my rose-colored glasses apparently aren't the same color...

The argument was over quality.....and Lincoln is not near the top domesicly in this regard. But I think Lincoln competes Buick more than Cadillac now anyway.

Quote:

T-bird SC - "The Super Coupe was a failure that got is whole development team fired the day after it was released."
By whose standards was it a failure?!?! My professor in Automotive Powerplants and Thermodynamics II courses traded his C4 in on a new SC while I was in his class (we were car-buddies out of class). He was thoroughly thrilled with it at the age of 47. It has been my experience that MOST if not ALL SC owners would buy another today if they were still available.

He may have liked his...but the sales were never there. The car was underpowered at the start and overweight. From a business perspective the whole MN-12 program was a failure. They designed a mega expensive chassis to replace the teh Fox chassis and in the end it was so heavy it could only be used on the T-bird/Cougar and Mark VIII. Even those sold less then thier Fox based predecesor. I know Guy loves SC's and I like them too....but business wise they did nowhere near as well as Ford wanted. People who owned SC's may want another....but not many people owned them to begin with.

Quote:

Ranger - "Ranger- I think the Colorado and Canyon will change this"
I don't know what's worse, the fact that a 20-year-old Ford mini truck is outselling everything else offered by GM, Dodge, and the imports, or the fact that you think a new offering is going to "change this". I digress.

I think it will..since the Colordo will be priced similarly and be better than the Ranger in every area.


[b][quote]The thread asked if I thought Ford was screwed - I answered.[b][quote]

I think your wrong too...when they are so cash strapped they have to hijack a Mazda platform and make 8 different models off it...including a Lincoln there is a problem. I don;t see GM making Epsiolon based Caddy's? When you have to cut overtime out of your employees pay, there is problems. When the Focus has been in the US market 3-4 years and over seas another two and not payed for it's initial investment there is a problem. When teh truck that your future rides on costs over $1,000 to much to make there is a problem. Ford is not out of the woods yet. Against GM's current line up they can compete...against the new one they will not,

Quote:

At least I had the decency to respond with fact and opinion and not resort to the low mental approach of claiming "every single one of their cars are crap - always have been, always will be." How naive. How lame.

I never said all thier cars were crap. I think thier management stratagy and financial planning is horrible. This si company three years ago that was on top of the world and had great profits...now bankrupty is a possibility? Then they had to cut costs to save thier hides and in the process compromised the quality of thier cars. GM on the other hand in the same time has designed 4 all new platforms (Delta, Epsilon, Sigma, and Theda) redsigned thier while truck line, developed a all new world class mid sized SUV, new compact pickup, new Corvette, made Cadillac a name you can say in the same sentence as BMW without laughing, and found a way to intergrate Holden's affordable RWD products into it's future product plans....

Suddenly Ford's planning over the last 5 years, and the future doesn't look all that good.

Ford may eb okay now, but oen pickup is not enough to stope them from being screwed in the future.

Quote:

I don't recall ever saying that GM didn't offer lots of performance cars. I was just demonstrating that Ford probably made more of them than the GM-enthusiast might be aware of. Then I end up defending my claim - no big deal. But to claim that Ford has no performance other than Mustang... geez. Take that crap to the lounge or somewhere else besides in here. You'll find more folks ignorant to the facts in those places and your propaganda job will be easier to sell.

BTW - Nice roll there guionM. You spent more time providing facts and figures that I was going to bother investing in this playground argument. You also brought up some additional models and points I missed altogether in my hasty response.

I said GM has made more performance cars than Ford in the last 30 years and that is true IMO. My point was the average person associates Ford performance with the name Mustang and thats about it....most of the cars you listed very few have heard of..

 

Sure they do, that's why there's an
Explorer AND a Mountaineer
Expedition AND Navigator
Taurus AND Sable
Crown Vic AND Marquis AND Marauder
Mustang AND Cougar ('98-'03, and '67-'73)
Mustang AND Capri ('82-'86)
Taurus SHO AND Lincoln LS
Escort AND Lynx
T-bird AND Cougar ('74-'98) and so on.

GM leads overall with 68.7%
Ford is second overall with 57.6%
Ford has 3 of top 4 most loyal by model...
1) Focus
2) Sable
3) LeSabre
4) Town Car
Here's a LINK

"Ford Motor Co. Brands Sweep 5 of 14 Customer Loyalty Awards"
See this ARTICLE

Your search tool works just like mine does.


Yeah but I don't gripe about every model and every thing feverishly. Pointing out a mistake is one thing, pounding down everything they make categorically (performance cars fro example) is something else.

Good point. I guess since there aren't many '93 Cobras on the road, they weren't successful either. Or Shelby Mustangs, or Yenko Camaros, or Regal GN's, or GNX's. You know, if ya can't sell 200k units/year of some specialty sub-model like a T-bird SC, it must be a crappy car.

Great. Wanna wager?

I can't help the Explorer/Firestone fiasco took the wind out of their sails. True they have had some hard road recently... but despite that hard road they are STILL the #1 brand selling, and they are on the road to lean and mean business. The Mustang and F-150 are but 2 of the upcoming stars, and I am almost certain they WILL be successes. If the Five-hundred comes in at half the success Taurus did in the '80's, The Impala and Monte better get ready for reduced sales. Again, Ford is releasing 65 new models in the next 3 years. Don't think GM (or anybody else) gets free shots at a still target.

WRONG...
Most of the cars I listed you choose to ignore or learn about.
They ALL have active clubs and are around us everywhere.
But you have to choose to see the forest, or the tree will get in your way. You and some others DEFINITELY have TREE-SYNDROME while most on this particular board have FOREST-VISION. GM and the Camaro are definitely trees in the forest, very welcomed trees to I might ad, you just can't see any of the others without jaded vision. Kinda sad IMO, because you are missing out on a lot of cool stuff, cool folks, and cool times by limiting your exposure. Oh well, not my prob.

I rest my case on this one. Other things to do.
Look forward to our next round in another thread!

 

After that last post, I decided to be a bigger guy and actually post you a few links to "show" you some of the performance cars Ford eeked out after the '60's era...
Maybe you were asking to be shown some of these cars and I was rude help you learn, griping at you instaed. If so, I appologize. Here's some of the past...

Talladegas, Torinos, and Cyclones galore in race trim

Some great picks of Mercury Cyclones

A nice Cyclone Spoiler

A ton of Maverick GT, Maverick Grabbers, and Comet GTs
A 73 Comet GT
the Maverick Grabber

The Mercury Capri II (a decent performer for the day)

Mercury Montego GT

A Ranchero GT (with Shaker hood on a Cleveland!)
A ranchero GT500

Help yourself to some Torino...
Must See...
The Torino Gran Sport (don't you remember Daisy Duke?!?! She drove one!
The "laser-striped" Torino GT - 429 Cobra Jet car

the Merkur XR4Ti
The XR4Ti does 200+ on the salt flats

That's all I got time for right now. If you are interested in more, I'll be happy to oblige at a later time. Hope this helps jog the memory a bit.

Proud

 

So you own a Trailblazer? Lol, A vehicle with 4 to 6 recalls in 1 year last I remembered. Isn’t that about what the focus had in its 1st year as well? What’s the tally now? For a guy that seems so recall-conscious, you sure picked the winner out of the bunch. I guess Chevy dropped the ball on the TB as well. It’s a good Suv, but the focus also happens to be a good car. Since the Focus is a failure in your book, the TB should have been as well. I guess you’re only recall-conscious when it’s a Ford product.

Quality cars made 10 years ago do sell cars. Reputations aren’t made overnight, they’re made over time and decades of good track records. I really haven’t seen improvements within GM till a year or 2 ago so I don’t know where you get the mid-90’s from. Consumer Reports study of 1993+ cars to avoid isn’t doing much to support your claim since over half the cars listed under the “Reliability Risks” are GM to 1 or 2 Fords. Recently, some of them have done well on “Initial Quality” tests, but we’ll have to see how they do in the long haul.

Lookey here too…According to MyCarStats.com : As of July 2003, 4 GM’s (including the new CTS) make the top 10 cars with most consumer complaints. Not another good showing.

That’s not to say that improvements haven’t been made…I just don’t see it is as drastic as you make it out to be.

The Accord v6 coupe 6spd is also faster than my mustang (when it was stock), the Impala SS, and many late GM muscle cars for that matter. It will also dust off any v6 pony car. They must not all be performance cars. The marauder has the same exact engine as the Mach-1, and to say it isn’t a performance car or that it doesn’t have potential is twisting the truth. It’s no sports car or lightweight. Stock #'s also only tell half the story.

They are all very different cars that appeal to different people. The Monte is FWD, the Camaro Rwd and has a v8 option, and the vette an expensive 2 seater sports car. They don’t compete nor steal sales from each other so I fail to see your point. All 3 having 2 doors and them competing with each other are 2 different things. They each have their own markets and class.

I can’t think of a single more boring brand in America than Buick. I’ve never even looked at them as makers of Luxury cars. Cadillac only recently took upon this major revamp of their image. A year ago, they were no better than Lincoln (in fact Lincoln was first to market the Ls and Navigator so Lincoln was imo ahead of Cadillac when it came to new exciting products not too long ago). Only recently has Cadillac made some very promising changes, with the XLR and CTS being the only products we’ve seen in showrooms to date. Last I checked, the Ls competed with the CTS (not a v6 FWD Regal or Century), and the Navigator was going head to head with the Escalade. While I do agree with the notion that Cadillac is shooting for much higher than Lincoln, I don’t agree with Lincoln being more of a Buick competitor. Cadillac is still competing with Lincoln. The next few years should be interesting. If Ford cares for Lincoln, they'll follow Cadillac. I do admit that that's going to be very hard. Right now, you're comparing new for 2003 and 2004 Cadillacs to Lincolns that debuted some years ago.

 

How could I forgotten the face of Ford performance in the 80's!


If you feel you have to list this as proof that Ford built performance cars than I am gonna let you win this argument because it is pointless to preech to a deaf person.

 

My Trailblazer has been fine.....and the focus has had 13 recalls I think...

Quote:

Quality cars made 10 years ago do sell cars. Reputations aren’t made overnight, they’re made over time and decades of good track records. I really haven’t seen improvements within GM till a year or 2 ago so I don’t know where you get the mid-90’s from. Consumer Reports study of 1993+ cars to avoid isn’t doing much to support your claim since over half the cars listed under the “Reliability Risks” are GM to 1 or 2 Fords. Recently, some of them have done well on “Initial Quality” tests, but we’ll have to see how they do in the long haul.

I am pretty sure that people arn't saying..."Lets forget all those recalls the last three years and buy that Explorer....we all know Ford had the best domestic quality in 1990"!.

Quote:

Lookey here too…According to MyCarStats.com : As of July 2003, 4 GM’s (including the new CTS) make the top 10 cars with most consumer complaints. Not another good showing.

That’s not to say that improvements haven’t been made…I just don’t see it is as drastic as you make it out to be.

Geez...when I see Toyota advertise how they rank tops on MyCarStats.com I will give them some credibility....untill then pure conjecture...

[quote]
The Accord v6 coupe 6spd is also faster than my mustang (when it was stock), the Impala SS, and many late GM muscle cars for that matter. It will also dust off any v6 pony car. They must not all be performance cars. The marauder has the same exact engine as the Mach-1, and to say it isn’t a performance car or that it doesn’t have potential is twisting the truth. It’s no sports car or lightweight. Stock #'s also only tell half the story.[quote]

Say what you want...but the Marauder disappoints in the performance department and the sales numbers show that. The fact that it is slower than the heavier, less powerful Impala SS tells the story,

Quote:

They are all very different cars that appeal to different people. The Monte is FWD, the Camaro Rwd and has a v8 option, and the vette an expensive 2 seater sports car. They don’t compete nor steal sales from each other so I fail to see your point. All 3 having 2 doors and them competing with each other are 2 different things. They each have their own markets and class.

Just liek a $15,000 V6 Mustang and a $35,000 Cobra appeal to different people...either way you want a two door at Ford you have no choice but to buy a Mustang...when combined with fleet sales this explains the Mustangs "sales lead" over any GM Coupe. Hell even Mercury doesn't have a Coupe any more...

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I can’t think of a single more boring brand in America than Buick. I’ve never even looked at them as makers of Luxury cars. Cadillac only recently took upon this major revamp of their image. A year ago, they were no better than Lincoln (in fact Lincoln was first to market the Ls and Navigator so Lincoln was imo ahead of Cadillac when it came to new exciting products not too long ago). Only recently has Cadillac made some very promising changes, with the XLR and CTS being the only products we’ve seen in showrooms to date. Last I checked, the Ls competed with the CTS (not a v6 FWD Regal or Century), and the Navigator was going head to head with the Escalade. While I do agree with the notion that Cadillac is shooting for much higher than Lincoln, I don’t agree with Lincoln being more of a Buick competitor. Cadillac is still competing with Lincoln. The next few years should be interesting. If Ford cares for Lincoln, they'll follow Cadillac. I do admit that that's going to be very hard. Right now, you're comparing new for 2003 and 2004 Cadillacs to Lincolns that debuted some years ago.

Lincoln doen't even have plans that could put it in the same league as Cadillac. With Cadillac's move upscale and Lincoln staying where it is thier cars are more and more in Buicks class...

 

I think the Focus is at 9 or 10 last I checked, but you’re probably right about the 13. The 2002 TrailBlazer is at 9 recalls, and the 2003 at 5 already. Same thing. Both it and the TrailBlazer have had massive recalls. At least the Focus has been on market for more than 2 years.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/pr...ls/results.cfm
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/pr...ls/results.cfm

Take away the exaggeration, and you’ll have something a little closer to the truth. People are still buying them right? Seriously, would any other Suv or car have survived something as big as the Firestone fiasco and what ever else problem there was on top of that and gone on to still outsell the competition (which btw had a redesigned TB a year earlier)? Despite the last troublesome 3 years, Ford still hangs to title of best selling brand. How many manufacturers could get away with that? Very little if any.


Lol, their source is the NHTSA. There’s your credibility right there. I think most people take things from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration a little seriously. The MyCarStats list is a little outdated as well. The NHTSA site is more current, and their records show that complaints on the CTS have increased some what over the last month.

Yeah, they appeal to 2 different people. Both are Mustangs, but one is more of an economy car and the other closer to a sports car.

I guess Gm doesn't sell their coupes to fleet (sarcasm). Fleet or no fleet, the Mustang sells with ease, even for a car that’s near the end of its life-cycle. Compare that to any cars in its class, and I’m sure it’ll come out on top.

Does Buick have a coupe? That's what Mercury is.

You’re forgetting that Ford only has 2 other domestic brands to GM’s 5 or so domestic car divisions (not counting GMC). There are more non-domestic Fords (Aston Martin, Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar) than domestic Fords (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury). You’ll have no trouble finding variety when talking about the Ford corporation as a whole. They’ve got everything covered from a sport compact, to a sports truck, to a sports coupe, to the ultra exotic Jags, Ford GT's, and Aston Martins. There’s no shortage of performance here. Ford itself, has most of the bases covered.

Where's Buicks version of the 280hp Ls, 305hp Aviator, 300hpNavigator, 290hp Continental, etc…? Buicks closest competitor is Mercury, and even it has a slightly more exciting lineup.

 

Sales were declining on the Exploer before the incentive war and Ford was considering renaming it. Combine the sales of the TB, Envoy, and Ranier and depending on the month the GMT-360 has out sold or is neck and neck with the Explorer, Mountianeer and Aviator.

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Lol, their source is the NHTSA. There’s your credibility right there. I think most people take things from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration a little seriously. The MyCarStats list is a little outdated as well. The NHTSA site is more current, and their records show that complaints on the CTS have increased some what over the last month.

To be honest I don't know what to make of this really...I never hear anyoen complain about the CTS which makes me question thier results. But this is also the internet...anyone can find data to back up any point of view if the look hard enough.

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Yeah, they appeal to 2 different people. Both are Mustangs, but one is more of an economy car and the other closer to a sports car.

Much like the Corvette, Camaro, and MC appeal to different people...

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I guess Gm doesn't sell their coupes to fleet (sarcasm). Fleet or no fleet, the Mustang sells with ease, even for a car that’s near the end of its life-cycle. Compare that to any cars in its class, and I’m sure it’ll come out on top.

Of GM's coupes the Camaro sold less than 1,500 to fleet...Ford put 40,000 Mustangs in fleet service the same year. And while there are some MC's in fleet service I am sure they don't out number the Mustang because the MC don't sell over 35,000 a year. Coupes are pretty rare in rental fleets except for the Mustang really.

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Does Buick have a coupe? That's what Mercury is.

Man using teh view Mercury is getting spanked by the most boring brand in the world.

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You’re forgetting that Ford only has 2 other domestic brands to GM’s 5 or so domestic car divisions (not counting GMC). There are more non-domestic Fords (Aston Martin, Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar) than domestic Fords (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury). You’ll have no trouble finding variety when talking about the Ford corporation as a whole. They’ve got everything covered from a sport compact, to a sports truck, to a sports coupe, to the ultra exotic Jags, Ford GT's, and Aston Martins. There’s no shortage of performance here. Ford itself, has most of the bases covered.

Which is why I get mad when people wanna compare Chevy Division to Ford Division...it is simply incorect to do so...GM and Ford have the same market share, but Ford has chosen to fo it with one brand having most models. I believe the comparing GM's domestic brands to Ford's domestic brands is much better...or comparing platform to platform..

GMT-360 to Explorer/Mountaineer/Aviator
W Car to Taurus Sable

Generally when you do this GM's strength comes to light....

If they didn;t have Saturn, or Buick to worry about and used that money on Chevy and Cadillac, GM would be a 10,000lb gorrilla in the market....but they can't just cut brands like that. For don the other hand has 3 brands and can't manage any but Ford nearly right.

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Where's Buicks version of the 280hp Ls, 305hp Aviator, 300hpNavigator, 290hp Continental, etc…? Buicks closest competitor is Mercury, and even it has a slightly more exciting lineup.

Ford doesn't make the Continental any more....

Lincoln is not in Cadillac's class...

Where's to 400HP LS?
Aviator is a warmed over Mountaineer...SRX destorys it.
Deville outsells Towncar
How does Lincoln compete with the XLR?
Escalade out sells Navigator...

My point is......Lincoln is not in Cadillac's class anymore....and Buick is moving upscale....so look for these two to compete...