I just wanted to point out that the 4th Gen F-body is highly covented by my 20 something age group...The Firebird/WS6 even fits in perfectly with the aggressive styling that younger buyers demand. What has happened it the car has become unattainable to the groups that covent it most. The car simply became unaffordable at any level with a base Camaro with roll up windows MSRPing at over $19,000. To say that the younger generation is turned off to the Camaro is 100% wrong...they just can't afford it...so they buy cars that they can..Civics...Celica's ect...Mattter of fact insurence is becoming less of an issue because import insurance rates are RAPIDLY rising. I belive an affordableand attractive base car will bring alot of younger buyers back to the Camaro. Remember in 93 a v6 Camaro MSRPed for $12,000 and a Z28 MSRPed for $20-22K (I am unsure of the exact number). In 2002 a base V6 MSRPed for $19,000 (A 6-7k increase), yet a Z28 only went up $2-3K to $24,000. That there should be a huge clue to what aided the sales decline....when your budget minded car sees twice the price increase of you uplevel model (yet the Z28 recieved a much greater improvement with the LS1) over the same time period with really no improvements but a move to the 3800 (which does not cost much more than the 3400).

In short if you pull a Camaro SS into a lot full of kids my age they will huddle around in awe of the car 90% of the time. Though they can't afford the SS, using teh HALO car marketing plan GM should be able to peddle them a V6 with relative success...however they were unable to. This IMO is due to two things...the price (you will be hard pressed to find a V6 under $20K MSRP since the 1SB option group that is pretty much standard on the Camaro is a $1000 option...just for power windows, cruise, ect). Get a car with T-tops, and auto, and ground effect (which people my age really like) and you will see a $24,500 sticker like my car had easy (NO I did not pay nearly that much..yet the sticker surly would scar many people away). That is even without a nice Monsoon stereo which younger buyers demand. Then consider you have cars like the Celica GTS and Neon SRT out there that offer way more performance that a v6 Camaro for around the $19K base price or a hardtop no option V6. Secondly it seems people catch a lot of **** for owning a V6 Camaro and I think that deters some people also.

If the Camaro has a future as a high volume seller it will need a car that appeals to people in my age group. It has to have near top of its price class power and style that doesn't scream "I couldn't afford a v8"....and come in under I would say by 2006-7 a price of $21,000.

 

Formula79, I appreciate what you put forward, but I have to respectfully say that I can’t buy your argument ... “The Yugo Marketing Model”. The cheap car solution, so that 20 year olds can buy it ... just won’t work. The fact that insurance is rising for other products does not create a more affordable situation for you buyers ...it creates an affordability problem for all products.

Sure ... I’d like to drop 21,000 US for a 2006 WS6 .... But I’d also like to win the lotto, lose a few pounds, and get the wife on the treadmill. But this just ain’t gonna happen ...

Clearly in my mind as a 40 year old buyer, there are three factors that hurt this car in the past
(1) The product ... Clearly my 99 was almost identical to my 94 except for the LS1 vs LT1. No real updates other than a new nose clip, rims, and two nostrils. (This was the real reason)
(2) The absence of a real marketing push (a couple of commercials, a few posters etc don’t cut it).
(3) The absence of supply when temporary demand was there (WS6 option in 98 and 99). Anyone remember what it was like to try to get one of these back then?

In the future, if GM is to proceed with a replace for the f-body, it must be up-to-date in terms of design and technology, and be supported with an effective marketing plan. I don’t mind putting the cash down if the product meets my specifications. Clearly the older guys have the cash to put down, there are lots of old guys (born 1945 to 1962) ...., but what is missing is the desire to have the car.

You (GM) have to make me fall in love again ....

I’m afraid that the future of this car is not dependent on price, but rather the product. If GM builds the car without raiding the parts bin of the mid 90's and goes in a positive direction in terms of the style, comfort and performance of the car, it will be a success.

 

1) I've said it before, I'll say it again: The V6 Camaro was overpriced by $1000. That's all... Price is paramount, but it wasn't as bad as you make it seem.

2) From what I understand, Camaro insurance was cheaper than Mustang insurance, pretty much across the board, so it probably balances out the price difference anyway, but most people don't see that...

3) In response to this: "It has to have near top of its price class power and style that doesn't scream "I couldn't afford a v8".... " well, being that the base car looked exactly like the Z28 except for the badge and the roof color... I dont get what you are saying at all. In fact, most Z28 buyers are calling for the Z28 to differentiate itself from the base car better!

4) Real problems: Lack of advertising, poor selection on the dealer's lots, and lack of funding to keep the aging model fresh and new.

 

Exactly

 

Toyota Celica price range: $17,300- 22,600
Nissan 350Z price range: $26,200-36,000
Subaru Impreza WRX price range: $22,100-24,100
Ford Mustang price range (not including limited edition models) $17,600(base)-24,700(GT)
Acura RSX price range: $19,900-23,200
Civic Si base price: $19,000
Accord coupe price range: $19,300-25,900
G35 coupe projected base price: $29,100
Mitsubishi Eclipse price range: $18,100-24,100 ($29,000 convertible)
Chevy Camaro price range: $16,800(base)-27,300(Z28)...$22,830 FOR A BASE Z28 COUPE!!!

Price is HARDLY the problem here. I'll buy the attractive package on the base model angle though. Camaro NEEDS a mid price model, or AT THE VERY LEAST to get rid of that mentality that puts the base model as an almost afterthought (something many people here are also guilty of in spades!).

However, and I rarely say things this strongly, but it's totally ridiculous to assume or think that the top Camaro is supposed to attract young buyers (in this case meaning under 25) and isn't doing this only because of price. History is against this, marketing is against this, and and taking a couple of minutes to dig up the demographics will bear this out. Sure there will be a few who buy them, but there's a few who also buy Corvettes too.

Of course, under 25 year olds want the fastest most powerful cars available. But kick in the reality of insurence (which drops at age 25 with good driving records) or the perception of high insurence, along with the perception of being a gas guzzler, the perception of being a dinosaur, and a body that hasn't changed since most of these young people were 15 years old....OR YOUNGER!!, and a picture develops. Not that everything is true, but perceptions = reality

Now that used Z28s are getting really cheap (SSs not withstanding, Camaros DO NOT exactly have high resale values) they are becomming "cool" out here in California, as young people are picking up LT1s for about $6,000 or less, and LS1s are starting under $9,000.

As I have always said, young people buy used

 

Push the same thing for 10+ years while everyone else brings something new and exciting to this market and look what happens. This is certainly a segemnt that isn't all about hp numbers and quarter mile times.

Not that performance isn't important, but style and just being something "new" are probably equally/more significant. Considering since '92 we've seen a couple different looks for Mustang, a couple different looks for Eclipse, new Integra/RSX, new Celica, new Tiburon, new Cougar, new Beetle, and now new 350Z (and several more cars in between), and it's no wonder sales lag on a product that debuted as a '93 model and has had minimal changes since.

Can you imagine shopping for a '93 Ford Probe or '93 Mustang today? Ok, even if you give them new headlights for '98 they still don't cut it. 10+ is an eternity for a car in this segment. As pointed out, would you be motivated to buy a car at age 24 that hasn't changed since you were riding the bus to jr high. Perhaps loyalists will, but needless to say the majority want more for their money.

 

For me at least, that pretty much sums up why we don't have a '03 f-body.

 

I think that you've pretty much expressed my feelings exactly. Chevy needs to make people fall in love with Camaro again. Even if it costs alittle more....people will "stretch" to buy it.

If it's not compelling...it doesn't matter how cheap it is.

 

The car simply became unaffordable at any level with a base Camaro with roll up windows MSRPing at over $19,000. To say that the younger generation is turned off to the Camaro is 100% wrong...they just can't afford it...so they buy cars that they can..Civics...Celica's ect...Mattter of fact insurence is becoming less of an issue because import insurance rates are RAPIDLY rising. I belive an affordableand attractive base car will bring alot of younger buyers back to the Camaro. Remember in 93 a v6 Camaro MSRPed for $12,000 and a Z28 MSRPed for $20-22K (I am unsure of the exact number). In 2002 a base V6 MSRPed for $19,000 (A 6-7k increase), yet a Z28 only went up $2-3K to $24,000. That there should be a huge clue to what aided the sales decline....when your budget minded car sees twice the price increase of you uplevel model (yet the Z28 recieved a much greater improvement with the LS1) over the same time period with really no improvements but a move to the 3800 (which does not cost much more than the 3400). I agree.

 

Guion you need to check Chevy's website....A base Camaro roll up windows and all is $19,100 and a base Z28 is $24,000+...you must be quoteing old numbers.

You won't get roll up windows in an RSX for $19,000. Also keep in mind the base car was very stripped. Add the options that most people my age would want...T-tops, Monsoon Stereo, Ground effects..you get a car in the mid $20ks. I need to scan the sticker for my car so you all can see how over priced some of GM's options on the V6 was. Mine stickered for almost $25,000 and is by no means loaded. Hell a rear defroster was $175...I am pretty sure Acura throws that on an RSX free of charge. ISB was $1100, A4 was $800. Traction control and Y87 were $200 a peiece (actually a good deal). Ground Effects were $1500. It is also funny because everyone who is my age loves ground effects on the Camaro....older people hate it. T-tops were $1100. I didn't even get thinks like leather seats, chrome wheels, or Monsoon audio. If I had a choice between a $19K base RSX, Celica, or Civic Si or a hardtop Camaro with no options I would be posting on Club Si.com right now. A base hardtop Camaro is not seen as coolo really in my age group...but ad T-topd and ground effects and the equation gets much better.

I bet if you could get something like the 97 RS package with T-tops for $19,000 there would be alot more V6's on the road.

Techinally if I would have been nuying a car 6 month earlier I would be in a Z28, but since there were none under $27K in January I had to chose between a loaded V6 or a Grand Am GT. I managed to get my car for $21K because my GF knew some people at almost $4k under sticker. I had to buy new (needed reabtes to cover negative equity) so used wasnt an option.

 

I agree with brandon here. What does a stripper V6 come with? Hubcaps? Why in god's name were they still putting hubcaps on a pony car in 2003? Nothing screams Im cool like hubcaps do. How about the hideous looking hard top? Evidently you could get body colored A pillars, but I havnt seen them on the road. The roof of the car looked so out of place that you almost had to buy a t-top car (+$1000) if you're in my age group. By the time you get the car looking something like cool, you're up to about $20k which is too much for a V6 Camaro. Cars like the RSX can get away with higer prices because they look better at the base price. Marketing is all about making people think they got a good deal. Im sure some economics major on here will disagree with me on that, but I bet you could have sold a lot more V6s by not including undesirable options and charging $18.5k sticker than starting with $17k and have to keep adding on.

 

Why would they streach to buy it? A Camaro SS was $30K plus. I am sure if some who can afford a $35K car can streach even more to buy a Corvette or GTO?

Would you pay $20K+ for the 4 banger base car that is seeming likely?

The Camaro was way too expensive in the end for what it was. For a new car price levels will have to stay the same or go down slightly (factoing inflation) to be succesful. When the 4th generation T/A came out the price fell from $24,500 for a 92 GTA to $22K for a 93 T/A. As prices in the 4th gen rose sales declined.

The $37,000 they asked for the CE T/A was simply out rageous.

 

See it's all about thinking as someone our age and what we want to be seen in. The $19,000 hardtop, roll up window V6 Camaro is not it. Maybe a V6 with T-tops and Ground effects....if the price is right. Did you know body color side moldings is a $60 option? They don't make Camaros without body color side moldings...so why is it an option...same with traction control...90% of post 98 Cars have it.

The Z28 gets younger people in the show rooms...at some point they will realize they can't afford them...that is why you have a V6 car. A V6 with a nice appearence package and low price will easily make that buyer stay at the dealer aND consider it. A stripper V6 car that costs nearly as much as the a Z28 yet has less options generally will make them head to the Toyota or Honda dealer..especially when the only other coupr you have in you showroom is a down sydrome cavalier.

Remeber the base price of the current car was $19K not $16-17K.

 

No bet. FWIW I think you're absolutely right.

I believe that body colored roof and headlight pockets became an option in '95. I ordered my '96 that way.

I could not possibly agree more.

That's because good taste takes years to develop.

 

Case in point;

My g/f (20 years old) recently purchased a 2002 VW GTI with power everything, sunroof, heated seats, heated mirrors, monsoon stereo, class leading interior, real back seat, and a turbo charged engine for $19,000

She put in a $350 chip and now it has around 240ft/lbs of torque, runs low 14's, and will rip the tires anytime you want. It also has a huge aftermarket that will make it as fast as a z/28 if she wanted to dump a couple thousand on it.

So why would she spend more for a v-6 pos camaro? Hers is cheaper, faster, has resale value, and the interior is the polar opposite of a camaro.